Transcript Translit עברית
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0:02 All right, Shavua Tov, good morning, good morning. 0:18 Let us begin, begin by thanking all of our sponsors for this morning's shiur. 0:22 To thank our Talmud Torah sponsors for the month of Tammuz, HaBa Aleinu LeTova. 0:27 Yoni and Avi Rahm for dedicating all the shiurim and drashos this month as a zechus for refuah sheleima for Eliezer Ben Elisheva. 0:35 Daniel and Batsheva Pava for dedicating all the shiurim and drashos this month for the third yahrtzeit of רב שלמה ושלמה בן יהודה אריה. 0:43 Yossi and Malky Cohen for dedicating all the shiurim and drashos this month in memory of Rabbi Dr. 0:48 Nachum Schorr, רב נחום בן רב חיים יהושע הלוי זכרונו לברכה. Our week of learning sponsors, the Miller-Rosen families, LeIlui Nishmas Dr. 0:58 Joseph Miller, חיים בן חיים יוסף בן ראובן זכרונו לברכה. And our Daf Yomi sponsors, Ayal and Sarah Steinberg, in the zechus of הצלחה לחנה בת סושה for an ultimate refuah sheleima, hoping that in the merit of our Talmud Torah, all the neshamas have an aliya, the families in nechama, all those who need 1:15 a refuah sheleima together with kol cholei Yisrael. HaKadosh Baruch Hu should continue to look after our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisrael, allow our holy soldiers to be successful bechol maasei yedeihem, and we zoche im yirtze Hashem to brachas and besoros tovos for Am Yisrael. 1:29 And with that, let us begin. 1:31 A lot to do today. 1:32 Today's daf is Ayin Hey, 75. 1:34 We are picking up on עין דלת עמוד ב. 1:37 We left off, let's just back up to the Iba'i Lehu, which is on 74 B, four lines up from before the lines get wide. 1:47 We actually read this question in yesterday's daf, but let's just jump right back into it. 1:53 מה לפדות בבן פקוע? So are you able to go ahead and redeem a first-born animal with a Ben Pekua? 1:59 So also remember again, the halacha is if there's a first-born donkey, that that goes ahead and has kedushah. 2:05 Interestingly enough, you might wonder to yourself, why is it that a donkey, which of course is a non-kosher animal, has sanctity? 2:14 Has first-born sanctity? In fact, it is the only example of this. 2:18 Again, we know that generally first-born kosher animals do have a sanctity, but we do not find any concept of a non-kosher first-born animal having sanctity. 2:28 The only example of that is the donkey. 2:32 What's the pshat? Some meforshim explain very beautifully because the donkey was the beast of burden which aided us when we left Egypt. 2:38 So again, because the donkey carried our possessions, because the donkey carried our stuff, the riches with which we left Egypt, therefore again, there was a special, I don't know what the right word is, I wouldn't call it affinity or connection, 2:51 but almost like hakara, recognition just of the central role that the donkey played in our initial stages of emancipation. 2:59 And as such, there is an inherent kedusha, which Rabosei also tells you a tremendous yesod that there is kedusha to be found in shouldering the burden. 3:07 Sometimes again, we become, there's a lot to do in Yiddishkeit and there's a lot with a lot of expectations and there's a lot that HaKadosh Baruch Hu puts on our shoulders. 3:16 And sometimes again, it could feel like a little bit like a schlep, could be feel a little bit overwhelming, a little bit onerous when you have to carry the burden. 3:22 But Rabosei, kedusha comes from carrying responsibility. 3:26 Kedusha comes from carrying things on your shoulders. 3:29 Kedusha comes from carrying the load. 3:32 At times it could feel overwhelming and at times it could feel crushing, but kedusha comes from carrying the load. 3:38 Incredible. So now, back to this. 3:40 Remember again Rabosei, just to reorient ourselves also just one moment, we do have an overarching machlokes when it comes to Ben Pekua. 3:46 Remember what was our machlokes in the Mishnah? 3:48 And this is going to frame a lot of what we're going to do today. 3:51 There was machlokes Rebbe Meir and the Chachamim. 3:53 Everyone agrees that halacha lema'aseh if you go ahead and you shacht the mother and you open up the mother and you find either a dead fetus or you find again let's say a fetus that has not fully matured, even if it's 4:05 alive, everyone agrees in that case the shechita of the mother goes ahead and takes care of the fetus. 4:11 What was the fundamental machlokes, case you remember again? 4:14 Just a little chazara from yesterday, what was the fundamental machlokes case? 4:17 You go ahead you shacht the mother, you open up the mother, what do you find? 4:20 You find a fully formed living, fully formed living fetus. 4:24 Not what the Gemara calls a ben tes, a fully formed nine-month fetus that is alive, literally alive and kicking. 4:31 So what is the halacha? Rebbe Meir says at that point that animal is its own entity and it requires its own shechita. 4:39 Ultimately, again, the Chachamim say, no, Ben Pekua is Ben Pekua, doesn't matter if it's six months, nine months, alive, not alive, any time you find something inside of the mother, at the end of the day, that fetus becomes permitted with the shechita 4:53 of the mother. So that is the fundamental overarching machlokes that is going to govern this conversation. 4:58 Now that we know that, let's chance it to this. 5:00 I have a... Now that we know that, let's transfer to this: I have a firstborn donkey, it happens to be the animal that I have available to me is a fully formed nine-month-old Ben Pakua. 5:08 Can I go ahead and redeem my donkey with the Ben Pakua or not? 5:12 So the Gemara says, אליבא דרבי מאיר לא תיבעי לך, it's obvious. 5:17 Yes, דכיון דאמר טעון שחיטה שה מעליא הוא. So this is easy. 5:21 According to Rebbe Meir, the answer is going to be an unequivocal yes, because according to Rebbe Meir, since the fully formed nine-month-old Ben Pakua requires shechita, what does that tell you? 5:31 What does that tell you? 5:32 It's a bona fide animal. 5:33 If it's a bona fide animal, it certainly could be used for redemption. 5:36 כי תיבעי לך אליבא דרבנן. Suppose where this machlokes come up? 5:39 The machlokes comes up according to the Rabbanan. 5:42 דאמרי שחיטת אמו מטהרתו מאי. So again the Rabbanan hold that the shechita of the mother takes care even of a fully formed nine-month-old Ben Pakua. 5:52 So what's the halacha over here, rabosai, first wide line. 5:55 כיון דאמרי שחיטת אמו מטהרתו כבשרא בדיקולא דמי. So on one hand, we could say, listen, since this animal has become totally permitted with the shechita of its mother, it's not considered to be an animal. 6:05 What is it considered to be? 6:07 Like meat in a basket. 6:09 Like meat in a basket. 6:09 In other words, we don't look at it as an animal, we look at it as meat. 6:13 If it's meat, then it cannot be used for redemption. 6:16 O dilma, the other possibility is, rabosai, second wide line. 6:19 כיון דרהיט ואזל ורהיט ואתי שה קרינא ביה. Or maybe rabosai, maybe no, since it, the lashon over here is actually very interesting. 6:27 It runs over here, right? 6:29 And it runs over here or it runs and comes back, it runs and comes back, it runs and goes and runs and comes back, then of course it's called a seh, it's called a sheep. 6:38 It's not... how can you call it meat in a basket? 6:40 Right? Sounds delicious, right? 6:41 But how can you call it meat in a basket, right? 6:43 At the end of the day, it's running around. 6:45 If it's running around, then by definition, it's a bona fide animal. 6:48 So rabosai, so that's the shailah. Rabosai, I'll just tell you just parenthetically, how fascinating is it to see, what's the raya? 6:55 What's the raya that something is alive? 6:57 What's the raya of life? 6:59 The raya of life is movement. 7:02 Is movement. The whole yesod of life is move yourself. 7:07 And again, lav davka physical movement, but movement. 7:11 As long as a person is growing, as long as a person is... 7:14 and if you look at the lashon of the Gemara is, the Gemara says, you go, you literally you go ahead, you run and you go ahead, you run and you go back. 7:21 And rabosai, part of that movement sometimes is regression. 7:23 Even when we make mistakes and we regress, right? 7:26 Even when life takes us in a direction that we don't want to go on, the incredible yesod of life is movement is the ultimate sign of vitality. 7:36 If I look at my life and I see that my life is moving, whether it's moving in the direction that I'd like it to or it's moving in the direction that I don't like it to, because both of those things 7:46 happen, lemaiseh, that's the sign of vitality. 7:50 Life, movement, represents... if you're moving, if you're moving, that means something great is going to happen. 7:57 Even if you're not happy with the direction that your life is moving, something great is about to occur. 8:03 Ma she'ein kein where there's stagnation, if there's no movement at all, that's meat in the basket, right? 8:09 If there's no movement in your life, you're pretty much stagnating, you're a neutral, then pretty much you're meat in a basket. 8:17 Alive, movement, incredible. Let's go weiter. Gutt. 8:20 So says the Gemara, we can't get too carried away with this, gotta finish the Gemara. Gutt. 8:23 Says the Gemara, Mar Zutra amar, so rabosai, so what's the halacha? 8:25 So this is our shailah. 8:27 So this is our shailah. 8:29 Can you redeem a firstborn donkey with a fully formed Ben Pakua? 8:33 According to Rebbe Meir, absolute yes. 8:35 According to Rabbanan, what's the answer? 8:37 מר זוטרא אמר אין פודין ורב אשי אמר פודין. Mar Zutra says no, you can't use it. 8:43 You can't use it for pidyon because in fact, according to the Chachamim, it will be called meat in a basket. 8:49 Rav Ashi says you can use it. 8:50 אמר ליה רב אשי למר זוטרא מאי דעתך. So listen to this. 8:54 Rav Ashi says to Mar Zutra, Mar Zutra, why not? 8:56 Why not? Why can't you use it? 8:58 דגמרת שה שה מפסחים. Because again Mar Zutra apparently learned a gezeira shava of seh seh from Pesach, for Korban Pesach. 9:08 Just like by Korban Pesach, it says seh by Korban Pesach and it says seh by the redemption of a firstborn donkey. 9:14 Just like by Korban Pesach, you have to use a living animal, you can't use a Ben Pakua animal, right? 9:18 Rabosai, you can't bring a Korban Pesach from a Ben Pakua animal, you need an actual, regular animal. 9:25 So too again, you can't use a Ben Pakua for redemption of the firstborn donkey. 9:30 The Gemara says, ואי גמרת שה שה מפסחים אי מה להלן זכר תם בן שנה אף כאן זכר תם בן שנה. 9:36 Well, Korban Pesach has to be male, has to be male, right? 9:39 Has to be fully unblemished and has to be within a year. 9:44 So you're going to apply all of those criteria ultimately again to the redemption of a chamor also? 9:51 Tifdeh tifdeh ribah. So the pasuk says tifdeh tifdeh, you shall redeem. 9:55 That's a riboi, so that comes to include even other forms of animals. 9:58 Aye, if that's the case, ee tifdeh tifdeh... 10:00 ריבה אפילו כל מילי נמי? But if that's the case, then tifteh tifteh is a ribboy, let it come to include that you could use a ben pakua as well. 10:10 אם כן שה שה מאי אהני ליה? If that's the case that you could use anything, then what does seh come to teach us? 10:17 So obviously seh comes to teach you that halacha l'maisa, at least according to Mar Zutra, that it's got to be a living animal, it's got to be a living animal. 10:26 But ultimately again, I'm sorry, right, seh means it has to be a living animal, but tifteh tifteh means that halacha l'maisa as long as it's a living animal you can pretty much use whatever you want. 10:37 It's not limited like Korban Pesach. 10:39 Incredible. So Rabbosai, takeaway, takeaway is this once again is a further application of the machlokes Rabbi Meir and the Chachamim. 10:47 What is the status of a fully formed, fully formed, fully baked, you know, nine month old living fetus that is found inside of the slaughtered mother? 10:58 Rabbi Meir says that is a bona fide animal, which is going to require its own shechita, which has the status of just a totally whole complete and independent animal. 11:07 Rabbi... I'm sorry, that's Rabbi Meir, that's Rabbi Meir. Chachamim, no, it's still called a ben pakua and it is totally permitted with the shechita of its mother. 11:15 So again Rabbosai, this is our ongoing machlokes. 11:18 Hopefully if we finish up the whole daf today we'll get to the halacha l'maisa. 11:22 Most probably we'll end up doing it first thing tomorrow morning, but this is our on... 11:25 this is our ongoing debate. 11:27 Next question. איבעיא להו מה למנות בו ראשון ושני? So Rabbosai, this is another fascinating application. 11:34 What... how does this play out in the laws of tumah v'tahrah? 11:37 Now what does this mean? 11:38 So Rabbosai, so imagine for a moment, imagine for a moment the... 11:41 the animal. Now remember an animal can't be mekabbel tumah while it's alive, right? 11:46 It's only mekabbel tumah once... 11:47 once it's slaughtered and it's food, or once it's dead and it's food. 11:50 So Rabbosai, imagine the following situation. 11:52 Imagine again, you've slaughtered the mother, inside of the mother is the ben pakua. 11:56 The mother comes in contact with a corpse. 11:59 Right? Now again remember a corpse has the ability to convey tumah to food also. 12:03 So here's the shaylah. 12:04 Do we say... now Rabbosai, in general, right, if the animal, the meat, right the meat of the mother touches a corpse, what happens? 12:10 It becomes a rishon. 12:12 Right? So now's... what's the shaylah? 12:14 Ultimately again, do we say that the mother becomes a rishon and the ben pakua a sheni? 12:19 Or no, do we say mother and ben pakua both become a rishon? 12:25 It's the same shaylah. 12:26 It's the same shaylah over and over essentially: how are we treating the ben pakua? 12:30 Is it literally like a separate entity like Rabbi Meir, or no, it's a part of the mother like the Chachamim? 12:35 So now let's just see it inside. 12:36 איבעיא להו מה למנות בו ראשון ושני? Rabbi Yochanan... Rabbi Yochanan says, מונין בו ראשון ושני. 12:41 Rabbi Yochanan says we treat the mother like a rishon and we treat the baby, the ben pakua like a sheni. 12:47 So the Gemara says: ריש לקיש אומר אין מונין בו ראשון ושני. 12:50 And if you look at Rashi for just a moment, Rashi says: Iba'ya l'hu... 12:53 it's three lines into the wide... 12:56 or I should say four lines up from the bottom of Rashi: נטמאה בהמה שחוטה מהו למנותה ראשון ובן תשעה חי שבבטנה שני? 13:05 So that's the shaylah. 13:06 Right? The mother is slaughtered, the meat contracts tumah. 13:09 Do we say that the mother's meat is a rishon and ultimately again the baby is a sheni or not? 13:15 So again Rabbi Yochanan, Rabbi Yochanan says yes, the mother's a rishon, the ben pakua's a sheni. 13:26 Reish Lakish says no, it's not rishon and sheni, they're both a rishon. 13:30 Why? How do we view the ben pakua? 13:31 This is very interesting: נעשה כאגוז המקשקש בקליפתו. 13:36 Everyone says, you know what the ben pakua's like? 13:38 The ben pakua's like a walnut inside of the shell. 13:41 In other words, everyone would agree that the walnut and the shell is one entity. 13:45 So the ben pakua is one entity with its mother as well. 13:48 Rabbosai, our fundamental machlokes. 13:49 So איתיביה ריש לקיש לרבי יוחנן. So Reish Lakish, who said that everything is a rishon, asked a kasha on Rabbi Yochanan who said that it's a rishon and sheni. 13:58 So the Gemara says: הבשר מגע נבילה דברי מאיר. 14:00 So Rabbosai, this is actually referencing back to our previous mishnah. 14:06 Right? This was the case of the ubar that extended its foreleg. 14:11 So what's the halacha in the case that we saw? 14:13 Yeah, Rabbosai, remember again this was the case ultimately again of where the ubar extended its foreleg, then you shechted the mother, right, then cut off... 14:19 cut off the foreleg. 14:21 So what's the halacha? 14:22 So... so Rabbi Meir said, הבשר מגע נבילה דברי מאיר. 14:26 So Meir said remember again the extended foreleg is a neveilah and ultimately again when it touches the rest of the meat that's maga neveilah. 14:34 Chachamim say no, that it has the status of treifa shechuta, which again Rabbosai what's... 14:42 what's the status of treifa shechuta? 14:44 It's pretty much tahor except by Kodshin. 14:47 Except by Kodshin. So the Gemara says over here: bishlama l'didi... 14:52 so now again remember this is Reish Lakish. Reish Lakish says according to me this makes sense, דאמינא חד גופא הוא היינו דאיקשר ב dama de'imei. 15:02 So according to me Reish Lakish says this makes sense that ultimately again the rest of the meat could become tamei. 15:08 Why? Because we must remember again in order for food to become tamei what has to happen it has to come in contact with a liquid so what was the liquid medium over here the liquid medium over here was the blood 15:18 of the mother. אלא לדידך במאי איתכשר? 15:21 But according to you according to you Rabbi Yochanan with what did the meat become receptive lekabel tumah? Amar lei beshchita k'Rebbe Shimon it became kashar ultimately again with shechita like Rebbe Shimon. Rabbosai so we've seen this concept before that Rebbe Shimon holds that halacha l'maaseh the same way that shechita permits 15:43 something for consumption shechita also goes ahead and makes something huchshar lekabel tumah. 15:49 The act of shechita itself renders it fit already to be mekabel tumah. 15:55 Okay interesting. So the Gemara says איתיבי רבי יוחנן לריש לקיש. 15:59 Now Rabbi Yochanan's turn. Rabbi Yochanan is kasha on Reish Lakish so listen to this Rabbosai this is actually fascinating as we're going to delve into more on the next amud. 16:04 So avar benar listen to this avar benar if the ben pakua watch this ben pakua and again Rabbosai now this case over here is the ben pakua is out and about right living his best life as the ben pakua has been birth is literally walking around 16:20 now again remember we still have to do this because in the Mishnah we did have Rebbe Shimon Shazuri. 16:25 Remember again Rebbe Shimon Shazuri how can you forget Rebbe Shimon Shazuri right? 16:29 Unforgettable. Rebbe Shimon Shazuri said that halacha l'maaseh even if the ben pakua is running around five years old halacha l'maaseh you could just go over to it and take a bite out of it right? 16:39 It does not require any level of shechita. 16:43 So we have to come back to that but listen to this case over here so you have a ben pakua that's walking around doing its thing what does it do so Rabbosai now watch this avar benar it walked through a river. 16:54 So the Gemara says huchshar fascinating what happens when the ben pakua walks through the river? 16:59 What happens after the river it becomes huchshar lekabel tumah it's come in contact with a liquid medium right and now huchshar Rabbosai now what does that show you? 17:06 Cause how do we view a ben pakua how do we view it how do we view it it's food it's food so it's like a piece of meat a walking piece of meat that walked through a river. 17:16 So what happens when a piece of meat goes through a river? 17:18 It's now coming in contact with a liquid medium if it's come in contact with a liquid medium it's huchshar lekabel tumah. 17:23 So watch this case. 17:24 So the ben pakua walks through the river huchshar halach leveit hakevaros then it wandered into a cemetery what happened tamei it now becomes tamei. 17:35 So listen to this. 17:36 So the Gemara says bishlama ledidi so Rabbi Yochanan says according to me this makes sense דאמינא תרי גופי נינהו משום הכי הוכשר אין לא הוכשר לא. 17:45 So according to me Rabbi Yochanan says this makes perfect sense why? 17:49 Because I count the ben pakua like a separate entity like a separate animal. 17:53 Because it's a separate entity therefore what it has to become huchshar lekabel tumah so therefore when it walks through the water now it becomes huchshar lekabel tumah. 18:03 אלא לדידך דאמרת חד גופא הוא. But according to you Reish Lakish who says that it's like the walnut in the shell that it's one entity the Gemara says הא איתכשר בדמא דאמיה. 18:23 But according to you ultimately again who says that it's one who says that it's one one entity so ultimately again what are you going to say that it's become that it's become huchshar in the blood of its mother? 18:34 So the Gemara stop Ayin Hey בשחיטה יבשתא ודלא כרבי שמעון we could set it up ultimately again as a shechita yaveshta. 18:40 In other words according to you why does it have to go through the river? 18:43 It already became huchshar lekabel tumah ultimately through what? 18:47 Through the blood of its mother. 18:48 So why does the baraisa have to set it up that it's walking through the river in order to become huchshar lekabel tumah? 18:54 It was already huchshar lekabel tumah through the dama through the blood of its mother? 18:57 To which the Gemara says you're right you're right normally that is the case but what's the case over here? 19:01 Top of Ayin Hey 75a a very interesting answer the Gemara says beshchita yaveshta it was a dry shechita a dry shechita no blood. 19:12 Okay the Gemara says udlo k'Rebbe Shimon. 19:20 Sorry according to according to according to Rabbi Yochanan that halacha l'maaseh it's nittar with the shechita of the mother right? 19:29 nittar with shechita of the mother therefore halacha l'maaseh it's not alive it's kishchutah it's already shechted and it should have been huchshar lekabel tumah with the blood of its mother. 19:40 That's the Gemara's answer. 19:40 So why does it have to go through the river? 19:42 To which the Gemara says no no it's shechita yaveshta it's a dry shechita and ultimately again delo k'Rebbe Shimon now again what did Rebbe Shimon say? 19:49 Rebbe Shimon said that halacha l'maaseh shechita is mattir or shechita is machshir lekabel tumah. 19:56 Okay good. So Rabbosai point is take away same machlokes. 20:00 Same machlokes. What is the status of a full-term ben pakua? 20:05 We begin to see this is a machlokes Rabbi Meir and the chachamim, so same machlokes in the mishna manifests itself in the halacha l'maaseh. 20:12 So case number one was, can you go ahead and use a full-term ben pakua to redeem a firstborn donkey? 20:18 Case number two is if halacha l'maaseh again, the mother becomes tamei, ultimately again, do we say the mother becomes a rishon and the ben pakua a sheini, or no, both mother and ben pakua are a sheini? 20:29 So but it's the same machlokes over and over. 20:33 The gemara now basically goes back to that brayta case because that brayta case was very interesting. 20:37 So remember guys, what was the brayta? 20:39 You've got a ben pakua. 20:40 Now again, remember in this case over here, like I said, the ben pakua's out and about, right, it's walking around. 20:44 So what did the brayta say? 20:46 The brayta said that the ben pakua walks through a river. 20:48 As soon as it walks through the river, it's huchshar lekabel tumah, and then if it goes into a cemetery, now it's mekabel tumah, it becomes tamei. 20:56 So the gemara says top of the page 75A, end of the first line, מן תנא עבר בנהר הוכשר הלך לבית הקברות נטמא. 21:05 So guys, who is this opinion that says that if the ben pakua walks through the river, it is huchshar lekabel tumah and then if it then enters into the cemetery, it becomes tamei? 21:13 Who is that? אמר אמר רבי יוחנן, רבי יוסי הגלילי היא. 21:16 It's Rabbi Yose HaGlili. What'd Rabbi Yose HaGlili say? 21:19 Here we go. דתניא רבי שמעון בן אלעזר אומר משום רבי יוסי הגלילי מטמא טומאת אוכלין וצריך הכשר. 21:28 Rabbi Yose HaGlili says that guys, that halacha l'maaseh that a ben pakua, a ben pakua—now Rashi points out over here, בן פקוע אפילו חי ונגע בטומאה—that a ben pakua ultimately again is metamei tumas ochlin. 21:43 Again, so Rabbi Yose HaGlili says a ben pakua is looked at as food. 21:47 Because it is looked at as food, it has the ability to contract tumas ochlin, but ultimately again, it requires hechsher. 21:56 Now again guys, there's two things that are being stated over here which are very interesting. 22:00 Number one, the fact that we say ben pakua, ben pakua is can contract tumas ochlin. 22:08 What does that tell you? 22:08 What does that tell you? 22:09 What does that tell you? 22:10 That it's food. Now interestingly enough, if you tell me that it's food, what else does that tell me? 22:15 That it is permitted with the shechita of its mother. 22:18 Right, that's what it has to mean. 22:19 But at the same time, Rabbi Yose HaGlili is saying is, it's still looked at as its own entity as well. 22:26 So as much as it is part of the mother, ultimately again, and its shechita is cared for with the shechita of the mother, it is also its own entity, which is why it needs its own hechsher lekabel tumah. 22:39 Take a look here at Rashi just for a moment, v'tzarich hechsher, Rashi says the last of the wide lines on top, d'trei gufei ninhu. 22:46 Ultimately because they're still two distinct entities. 22:49 אליבא דרבי יוסי הגלילי, metamei michaim, וכרבנן דמתניתין לא אוקמה ונימא. Okay, so guys, so here's the interesting part about the shita of Rabbi Yose HaGlili. 22:57 On one hand, he holds that ben pakua is food. 23:00 To say that it's food means that it's permitted with the shechita of its mother. 23:05 On the other hand, he's also saying that what? 23:09 That halacha l'maaseh it requires its own hechsher in order to be mekabel tumah, which would indicate also that it's its own entity. 23:18 וחכמים אומרים אינו מטמא טומאת אוכלין מפני שהוא חי. The chachamim say ultimately again it is not metamei tumas ochlin. 23:26 Why? Because it's alive. 23:27 וכל שהוא חי אינו מטמא טומאת אוכלין. So this is very interesting. 23:33 So guys, again we'll have to reconcile all of this. 23:35 The chachamim say look, at the end of the day, the ben pakua's still alive. 23:38 In other words guys, on one hand it's alive but yet what, but yet what, it doesn't require shechita. 23:44 But yet l'maaseh functionally, functionally it's alive. 23:48 So because it's alive, it can't contract tumas ochlin. 23:52 Guys, hear this tension over here? 23:54 So on one hand you're going to have this animal which technically speaking is permitted with the shechita of its mother. 23:59 Yet what is the one physiological truth that we cannot deny? 24:04 That what? That it's alive. 24:07 That it's alive. So it's this fascinating dance that we're doing over here. 24:11 So on one hand Rabbi Yose HaGlili is going to say that halacha l'maaseh it's food. 24:14 Why is it food? 24:16 Because halacha l'maaseh ultimately again it is it was shechted together with its mother. 24:20 On the other hand it needs its own hechsher because it's its own entity. 24:24 The chachamim will say it can't contract tumas ochlin. 24:27 Why not? Why not? 24:29 Because it's not ochel. 24:30 Aye, but one second, it doesn't need shechita, so it is ochel. 24:33 Yes, it doesn't need shechita because it was permitted with the shechita of the mother but it's not ochel. 24:39 Categorically it's not ochel. 24:40 Why? Because it's alive. 24:42 Because it's alive. Fascinating. 24:43 ואזל רבי יוחנן לטעמיה. So ultimately again Rabbi Yochanan, Rabbi Yochanan, ואזל רבי יוחנן לטעמיה d'amar Rabbi Yochanan, רבי יוסי הגלילי ובית שמאי אמרו דבר אחד. 24:57 Guys, I'll just point... 25:00 I just point out something amazing. 25:02 I just want to tell you something. 25:02 Just, what's the confusion over here? 25:05 Right? What what what what is the confusion? 25:07 The confusion is that you have this thing that on one hand, on one hand, is slaughtered, right? 25:14 Technically speaking, came out of an animal that was already slaughtered, which would see and clearly, again, the fetus, of course, is an entity, is an outgrowth of the mother. 25:26 So, on one hand, again, it came and literally we discovered it only—remember, this animal was never birthed. 25:31 When did we discover that this animal even existed? 25:34 After we shechted the mother, opened up the mother, found this fetus. 25:38 So, in that respect, again, you have an animal that was slaughtered along with its mother and should be permitted. 25:42 On the other hand, it's standing right here in front of us now, alive and kicking. 25:48 Literally alive, kicking, walking, walking through rivers, going visiting cemeteries, right? 25:53 It's doing its thing. 25:55 So lemaiseh, there is just this kasha of identity. 25:59 Rabosai, I just point out something amazing. 26:01 You know, if a ben pakua is this confusing in the eyes of the gemara, right? 26:05 Imagine how confusing we are. 26:08 Right? Imagine how confusing we are. 26:09 Right? You look at any one of us and what do we have? 26:11 On one hand, again, I have all of these incredible mitzvos, all of these incredible things, all of these beautiful things that I do. 26:19 On the other hand, I have all of my aveiros, right? 26:22 All of the less than desirable behaviors and traits and different things I engage in. 26:28 Rabosai, this this is why, this why the medrash says, just very quickly, this is why the medrash says that when Yaakov Avinu was having his dream, right, the pasuk says ומלאכי אלוהים עולים ויורדים בו. 26:39 Right? Yaakov Avinu dreams about a ladder and the malachim are going up and down the ladder and the medrash says, why were they going up and down the ladder? 26:46 So the medrash says something beautiful. 26:48 The medrash says the malachim were down on this world and they saw Yaakov Avinu. 26:52 And then they went up the ladder and they saw הסתכל בדיוקנו חקוקה על כסא הכבוד. 26:58 They saw the image of Yaakov Avinu engraved on the throne of Hakadosh Baruch Hu. 27:02 And they went back down and they saw Yaakov Avinu again, and they went back up and they saw the image of Yaakov Avinu, and they couldn't reconcile. 27:09 They couldn't reconcile how could it be that a mere mortal has his image engraved on the very throne of Hakadosh Baruch Hu. 27:17 What the malachim could not wrap their head around is how could a mortal be holy? 27:24 I understand how malachim, how angels could be holy because they have no physicality to them. 27:28 But how could someone who is physical, who is carnal, who has pulls and wants and wishes and desires and proclivity, how could such a person become so holy that his image is engraved on the kiseh hakavod and the malachim couldn't understand 27:42 it. That's because the malachim don't understand us. 27:45 We get it. We understand because we just learned the sugya of ben pakua. 27:48 What's ben rabosai, what's the sugya of ben pakua? 27:50 Like what are you? 27:51 What are you, ben pakua? 27:52 Right? Are you are you a basket of meat or are you a living entity? 27:57 See, because we can understand this contradiction. 27:58 Because sometimes, rabosai, sometimes the way I behave, I'm just a basket of meat, right? 28:03 That's, I hate to say it like this, but sometimes just the way that I behave, I'm just one big basket of meat. 28:09 And sometimes I'm like the greatest light in the entire universe. 28:13 I—so which one is it? 28:14 Which one is it? 28:14 And what's the answer? 28:16 What's the answer? Yes, right? 28:17 The answer the answer is I'm both. 28:19 I'm both. See, I we understand this sugya so much because this speaks to a piece of us, because the whole yesod of the ben pakua is like how do you identify? 28:26 Like, what are you? 28:27 What are you? And you see the gemara struggling with this and this is such a beautiful sugya for us, especially again the eve of Rosh Chodesh Av, because Rosh Chodesh always represents an opportunity for rebirth, for new beginnings, for new hatchalos, and now 28:40 we're literally now—again, I'm not kidding around anymore—it's almost Elul, right? 28:44 We're literally one month away and this whole yesod is like trying to figure out who are we. 28:49 And part of the difficulty is that we are such an inherent ball of contradictions. 28:54 I'm on sometimes like a tzaddik yesod olam and sometimes I'm just a bucket of meat. 28:59 Right? And again, that contradiction that the malachim can't understand, we understand it perfectly. 29:03 That's why, again, rabosai, that's why if you feel very connected to this sugya of ben pakua—and I see it in your eyes that many of you feel ridiculously connected, either you're either you're sleeping with your eyes open or you're ridiculously connected 29:15 with this sugya—if you feel connected with it, rabosai, this is why. 29:19 This very much speaks to the totality of of the existential angst with which many of us live day in and day out. 29:28 The struggle to find definition, the struggle to find who and what I actually am is truly manifest in the sugya of ben pakua. 29:35 All right, let's go veiter. 29:36 Says gemara ואז רבי יוחנן טמא. Der Rebbe Yochanan, רבי יוסי הגלילי ובית שמאי אמרו דבר אחד. 29:41 This is really interesting. 29:41 Rebbe Yochanan, v'Reish Lakish, sorry, Rebbe Yochanan, sorry, Beis Shammai, Beis Shammai, רבי יוסי הגלילי ובית שמאי said both, both espoused the same ideology. 29:53 רבי יוסי הגלילי הד אמר. So Rebbe Yose HaGlili we just said before, right, that ben pakua acquires tummas ochlin and requires hechsher. Beis Shammai... 30:00 So it's very interesting. 30:01 What does Beit Shammai say? 30:02 Beit Shammai d'tenan דגים מאימתי מקבלין טומאה. So it's very interesting. 30:06 Fish, from what point in time do fish, are fish mekabel tumah, which is another way of saying at what point in time is a fish considered to be food? 30:16 So when is a fish mekabel tumah? Beit Shammai omer, Beit Shammai says, misheyitzadu, as soon as they're trapped. 30:22 Because remember again, fish do not require shechita. 30:25 So pretty much as soon as it's trapped, it's ready to be eaten. 30:29 Once it's ready to be eaten, by definition it is mekabel tumah. U'Beit Hillel, Beit Hillel says, misheyamusu, when they die. 30:35 No, no, again fish has to be dead and then it's mekabel tumas ochlin. Rabbi Akiva omer mishe'ein yacholin lachayos. 30:40 And Rabbi Akiva says ultimately from the moment they can no longer live, then it's mekabel tumas ochlin. Gimara, by the way, mai beinaihu, what's Rabbi Akiva and Beit Hillel seem to be saying the same exact thing? 30:52 To which they want to say, Rabbi Yochanan, דג מקרטע איכא בינייהו, a thrashing fish. 30:58 A fish that's thrashing. 30:59 On the one hand that fish is going to die, right? 31:03 On the other hand it's not dead. 31:04 So Rabbi Akiva would say that fish from the time that it's thrashing and going to die, it's considered to be ochel and therefore mekabel tumas ochlin. Beit Hillel says no, it's not ochel until it's actually dead and therefore even though it's thrashing it's not dead 31:17 yet. Okay. Incredible. Ba'ei Rav Chisda, נולדו בדגים סימני טרפה מהו? 31:21 So rabosai, see now the Gimara brought up fish. 31:24 The Gimara says, so rabosai just so you understand, this ongoing issue about the definition of ben pakua unresolved. 31:29 Unresolved. Which by the way, that's fine because it's the same, it's the same tension in the Mishnah, Rabbi Meir and v'Hachamim, what is the status of a fully formed ben pakua? 31:36 We're just seeing more and more applications of this ongoing dispute. 31:40 Now the Gimara asks an interesting question. 31:42 נולדו בדגים סימני טרפה מהו? So rabosai, this is actually quite interesting. 31:46 Halacha l'ma'aseh, what happens if a fish developed simanei treifa? 31:51 A fish became a treifa. 31:52 For example, Rashi says the kashkas of the fish were perforated which would normally make an animal a treifa. 31:57 Now again rabosai, what's the shayla? 31:59 Obviously there's no shechita by a fish. 32:01 So because there's no shechita by a fish the Gimara is essentially asking is do the halachos of treifa apply to a fish or not? 32:09 So תיבעי למאן דאמר treifa chaya, ותיבעי למאן דאמר treifa eina chaya. 32:13 So again rabosai, whether this is true whether a treifa is able to live or not, the question still stands. 32:17 treifa chaya, so on the one hand according to the opinion that says that a treifa is able to live, בהמה הוא דנפישא חיותא. 32:26 So that is true by beheima which literally translated has a very strong life force. 32:31 In other words it has a lot more vitality to it. 32:33 אבל דגים דלא נפישא חיותייהו לא, but fish ultimately again which do not have a strong life force associated with it perhaps not. 32:41 או דילמא אפילו למאן דאמר treifa eina chaya, or maybe the shayla is even according to the opinion that says that a treifa is not live, הני מילי בהמה דיש במינה שחיטה. 32:53 When did the halachos of treifa apply? 32:55 Only when you have the halachos of shechita. 32:58 אבל דגים דאין במינה שחיטה אימא לא, but rabosai but ultimately fish which obviously have no halachos of shechita. 33:05 If you have no halachos of shechita then what? 33:07 You have no halachos of treifa either. 33:09 To which the Gimara says, teiku. 33:12 Interestingly enough the Gimara leaves the shayla ultimately again of what happens if a fish develops treifa simanim, leaves it as an open ended shayla. 33:19 Fascinating. Let's go further. 33:22 Hitila nefel. So rabosai very interesting case over here. 33:25 So what happens if this is now not ben pakua? 33:28 This is now just a general case. 33:30 An animal, an animal miscarries. 33:33 So now you have the fetus. 33:34 So rabosai so now the shayla is Rabbi Yochanan omer chelbo k'chelev beheima. 33:37 So rabosai the Gimara asks a very specific question. 33:40 What is the status of the chelev, of the fat of the animal that miscarried? 33:45 What's the status? So the Gimara says Rabbi Yochanan omer chelbo k'chelev beheima. 33:50 Its chelev ultimately again is like the chelev of a regular beheima. 33:54 Right? So in other words the status of the miscarried fetus is assur just like the chelev of a regular beheima. Resh Lakish omer chelbo k'chelev chaya. Resh Lakish says no, its chelev is like the chelev of a chaya and again rabosai what's the status of the chelev of 34:07 a chaya? Muttar. So in other words the chelev of a miscarried fetus ultimately again is not assur. Rabbi Yochanan omer, so let's analyze this machlokes. Rabbi Yochanan omer chelbo k'chelev beheima avira garem. Rabbi Yochanan says that its chelev is assur why? 34:24 Because it is the birthing of the animal which endows its, which endows its chelev with a prohibited status. 34:30 Literally avira means the air. 34:31 Once it's birthed into the world, its chelev becomes assur. 34:34 So this animal was birthed. 34:36 In other words it was birthed, granted it's a miscarriage but it was birthed. 34:38 Therefore its chelev is assur. Resh Lakish omer chelbo k'chelev chaya chadashim garmi. Resh Lakish says no, it's not the birthing that makes its chelev assur rather what is it, what is it? 34:50 It's age. It's age. 34:51 It has to be fully matured. 34:53 Only a fully matured animal ultimately again does its chelev become assur. 34:56 איכא דאמרי כל היכא דלא כלו חדשיו לא כלום הוא. So rabosai ultimately An alternate version of this discussion is that everyone will agree that when the fetus was miscarried pre-term, pre-term, that halacha l'maisa the chelev is going to be totally muttar. Ki pleigi, where is the machlokes? 35:11 Listen to this: היכא דהושיט ידו למעי בהמה ותלש חלב של בן תשעה חי ואכלו. 35:18 What's the shayla? The shayla is the shochet put his hand into the womb of the animal, cut off a piece of the chelev from the fetus which was a nine-month-old fully formed fetus. 35:29 Talented shochet. Right? So he went and cut off. 35:32 So what, so now he extracted a piece of chelev from a fully formed nine-month fetus. 35:39 What is the status of that chelev? 35:41 So the Gemara says, v'achalo. Rabbi Yochanan. Rabbi Yochanan says חלבו כחלב בהמה וחודשים גמי. 35:47 Rabbi Yochanan says it's assur. 35:48 It's assur. Why? Because the chelev of that fetus, what what what endows, what endows the chelev with prohibited status? 35:56 Age, maturation. Since this was a fully formed nine-month fetus, therefore its chelev is assur. Reish Lakish says חלבו כחלב חיה חודשים ואוירא גמי. 36:08 Reish Lakish says no, you need both, you need both age and birthing. 36:12 Right? So in order for chelev to become assur, it has to come from a fully formed animal, i.e., nine months, and number two it has to be birth, what we call avira. 36:22 Good. And therefore in this case, in this case the shochet would be patur. 36:25 The chelev would have the status ultimately again of the chelev of a chaya. 36:28 סייסי רבי יוחנן ריש לקיש. So Rabbi Yochanan raise kasha to Reish Lakish: מה חלב ושתי כליות האמור באשם מוציא מכלל שליל. 36:38 So you guys remember again when it comes to korbanos, when it comes for example to the asham, the halacha is that you have to offer up the chelev and the two kidneys on the mizbe'ach. Rabbosai, when the Torah goes out of 36:48 its way to say that you have to offer up the chelev it comes to exclude, motzi mikhlal shalil. 36:54 It comes to exclude the chelev of the fetus that one need not offer up the chelev of the fetus on the mizbe'ach. 37:01 אף כל מוציא מכלל שליל. So too again I would exclude any, in general the prohibition of chelev does not apply to a fetus. 37:10 So the Gemara says: Bishlama l'didi, so ultimately again Rabbi Yochanan says this makes sense according to me, according to me. 37:18 הנא דאיצטריך קרא למיעוטי. We need a pasuk to exclude the chelev of a fetus, why? 37:24 Because otherwise I would have treated the chelev of a fetus just like what? 37:28 The chelev of a regular animal. 37:30 Right? And therefore the pasuk comes to exclude to tell me that when it comes to sacrificial law you need not offer up the chelev of the fetus on the mizbe'ach. Ella l'didach, but according to you Reish Lakish that the chelev of the of 37:43 the fetus in general is not real chelev, amai itztarich, amai itztarich? 37:45 Ultimately again why you need a pasuk to exclude it? 37:49 It's already excluded. אמר ליה טעמא דידי נמי הכא. 37:53 Reish Lakish says oh, I glean my very opinion from this context as well. 37:57 V'ika de'amri, an alternate version of this: סייסי ריש לקיש רבי יוחנן. 38:00 Reish Lakish was raise kasha on Rabbi Yochanan: מה חלב ושתי כליות האמור באשם מוציא מכלל שליל אף כל מוציא מכלל שליל. 38:10 Just like the Torah says when you have to offer up the chelev and the kidneys of the korban, it excludes the chelev of the fetus, so too again in general, chelev of a fetus is excluded from the halachos of chelev. 38:23 בשלמא לדידי משום הכא מיעט רחמנא. Reish Lakish according to me it makes sense why the Torah excludes this. 38:30 Ella l'didach, but according to you Rabbi Yochanan why should you not have to offer up the chelev of the fetus on the mizbe'ach? 38:39 אמר ליה מידי דהוי מחוסר זמן. It's very interesting because he says according to me I hold the fetus has the din of m'chusar zman. Rabbosai, m'chusar zman refers ultimately again to a sacrificial animal that has not reached the proper requisite age. 38:54 And therefore again he says I hold that a fetus essentially has not reached the requisite age and therefore halacha l'maisa can't be offered up. 39:02 Incredible. Amar Rabbi Ami. Rabbi Ami says next: השוחט את הטרפה מצא בה בן תשעה חי. 39:11 Rabbosai now watch this. 39:38 Now Rabbosai now this is a fascinating case. 39:40 In this case we're back to Ben Pekua now. 39:42 You shachted the mother. 39:43 The mother was a treifa. 39:45 The mother was a treifa. 39:46 So which Rabbosai now again what's the status of the mother? 39:49 What's the status of the mother? 39:51 Right? Dead. Right. That is true. 39:53 Yes. Yes. Right. Check. 39:54 Right. The mother is dead, thank you. 39:56 I want to clarify that. 39:58 Right. Good. So Rabbosai so now that the mother is dead, also remember again, you can't eat the mother. 40:03 Why not? Why not? 40:05 Treifa. Right, so watch how fast this is, right? 40:07 So you shechted the mother, the mother was a treifa, right, can't eat the mother. 40:10 Now what's going to be, we know, where is this going? 40:12 Where is this going? 40:13 What's the status now of the Ben Pekua? 40:16 Classic case of Ben Pekua, shchita of the mother permits the fetus, permits the Ben Pekua. 40:23 We've always been operating under the assumption of what's the case? 40:26 The case is where the mother is permitted for consumption. 40:28 What about in a case where you shecht the mother, the mother's a treifa? 40:32 Now, what, what's the status of the Ben Pekua? 40:34 Is the Ben Pekua permitted through the shchita of the mother even though the mother is not permitted through her own shchita? 40:41 So Amar Rav Ami: השוחט את הטרפה ומצא בה בן תשעה חי. So you shecht the mother, the mother was a treifa, you find inside of the mother a living fully formed fetus. 40:50 L'divrei ha'oser matir, l'divrei hamatir oser. Okay. So now watch this. 40:57 Rav Ami says like this. 40:58 So l'divrei ha'oser matir. If you look at Rashi, Rashi says over here it's five lines up from the bottom: בן תשעה חי כשר אף על פי ששחטנו מתיר זה באכילה דשחיטתה מטהרתו. 41:10 So rabosai, listen to this. 41:11 According to the opinion who generally says, this is Rabbi Meir, who says that a nine-month-old living fetus has to be shechted on its own, on its own, right, ultimately again in that case we'll say מתיר זה באכילה דשחיטתה מטהרתו. 41:28 According to the opinion that normally requires an independent shchita, ultimately again for a Ben Pekua, we'll say that in this case the shchita of the mother ultimately again allows for the consumption of the animal. 41:42 Okay, we'll explain this in just a moment. 41:45 L'divrei ha'oser matir, l'divrei hamatir oser. But according to the opinion ultimately again that says that normally there's what? 41:54 That halacha l'ma'aseh it is the shchita of the mother which permits the Ben Pekua, in this case we'll say the Ben Pekua is assur. 42:02 Right, why? Because the Ben Pekua was not permitted with the shchita of the mother. 42:06 Look at oser next Rashi, four lines from the bottom: בשל טרפה דשחיטה דידה לא מהניא בה ושחיטת הטרפה לא משרי שרי הוא כאבר מן החי. 42:15 So rabosai, now watch this. 42:16 According to the opinion that says that normally a Ben Pekua is not permitted with the shchita of the mother, that's fine, in this case we'll still work. 42:27 What will you do in this case where the mother was a shchita? Shecht the Ben Pekua because we're fine, but according to the opinion that says that a Ben Pekua is normally permitted with the shchita of its mother, in this case the Ben Pekua 42:37 will be assur. Why? 42:39 Because it is only the shchita of the mother which permits the Ben Pekua. 42:43 In this case the shchita of the mother is, quote-unquote, invalid because the mother is a treifa. 42:48 Therefore there is no remedy for the Ben Pekua. 42:51 Fascinating. Rava amar, Rava says: No, not true. 42:54 לדברי המתיר נמי מותר. Not true, even according to the opinion that says that a Ben Pekua is normally permitted with the shchita of the mother, even if the mother is a treifa, the Ben Pekua is still going to be fine. 43:06 But fine how? You're going to have to shecht the Ben Pekua himself. 43:11 Why? The Gemara says: ד' סימנים אכשר בהו רבנן. 43:17 Ultimately rabosai, understand, everyone agrees a Ben Pekua always has two avenues of shchita, which is what? 43:26 Either, either the shchita of the mother or its own shchita. 43:30 In other words, rabosai, what Rava is introducing over here is something amazing. 43:34 Even according to the opinion that says, which is the Chachamim, that a Ben Pekua is permitted through the shchita of its mother, everyone will agree, seemingly everyone will agree that a living fully viable full-term fetus can always be shechted on its 43:47 own, right? It's just that there's an additional avenue of permitting that fetus through the shchita of the mother. 43:53 But if for some reason the shchita of the mother is not available, like in this case where the mother is a shchita, remember this lashon: ד' סימנים אכשר בהו רחמנא. 44:02 The Torah permits four simanim. 44:04 In other words, what's the four simanim? 44:06 The koneh and the veshet of the mother and the koneh and the veshet of the Ben Pekua. 44:10 So if for some reason again you can't have the shchita of the mother, mother's a treifa, or rabosai, even in a simpler case, you botched the shchita of the mother, no problem. 44:20 The Ben Pekua is still going to be salvageable through its own shchita. 44:24 Incredible. Amar Rav Chisda. So rabosai, another fascinating machlokes. Amar Rav Chisda, Rav Chisda says: השוחט את הטרפה ומצא בה בן תשעה חי. 44:33 If you shecht a treifa, the mother is a treifa, you open up the mother and you find a fully formed viable nine-month fetus. 44:39 So what's the halacha rabosai? Amud bais. 44:41 טעון שחיטה וחייב בזרוע ובלחי ובקיבה. So again, now the Ben Pekua is not permitted through the shchita of the mother, no problem, it gets its own shchita, gets its own shchita and by the way, it's a fully normal animal and therefore you're also obligated to give 45:00 all of the kohanim's. 45:01 Kohanic gifts from that animal: the foreleg, the chest, and the stomach. 45:06 V'im meis, but if the animal dies, right, if the Ben Pakua dies, ultimately again pattur militamei b'massa. 45:14 This is interesting, rabbosai, that if halacha l'maisa, this is fascinating, that if halacha l'maisa the animal, the Ben Pakua dies without shechita. 45:21 Now normally we would say if the Ben Pakua dies without shechita, what is its status? 45:24 What is its status? 45:25 It's a neveilah. A neveilah goes ahead and conveys tumas massa or maga. 45:31 In this case, the Ben Pakua will not convey tumas neveilah. 45:34 Why not? Watch this, because the Gemara says the shechita of the mother removed from it tumas neveilah. 45:41 So as much as the shechita of the mother did not permit the consumption of the Ben Pakua, why not? 45:47 Because halacha l'maisa again the mother was a treifa, but the shechita of the mother would at least go ahead and remove any possibility of tumas neveilah. 45:54 Incredible. So the Gemara says: אמר ליה רבא טעון שחיטה כמאן? 45:58 According to whose opinion does the Ben Pakua require shechita? K'Rabbi Meir. 46:03 That's Rabbi Meir. Because once again what does Rabbi Meir hold? 46:05 Rabbi Meir holds in general that a fully formed nine-month fetus is what? 46:07 Is its own entity. 46:09 Is its own entity. 46:09 So it's going to require shechita like Rabbi Meir. V'im meis pattur militamei but yet again if the, if the Ben Pakua dies without shechita, what's its status? 46:18 Its status ultimately again is it does not convey tumas neveilah. 46:22 Right? Keman? K'Rabbanan. That's like the Rabbanan who say that the Ben Pakua is permitted with the shechita of its mother. 46:30 So rabbosai you see here, you hear what this is? 46:31 This is fascinating. So this, this last statement rabbosai, this last statement which was Rav Chisda. 46:36 So Rav Chisda said, if you shecht the mother, mother is a treifa, inside of the mother you find a fully formed nine-month-old fetus, a Ben Pakua, so ultimately again rabbosai so what's the halacha? 46:46 Number one, if you want to eat that Ben Pakua, what do you have to do? 46:49 You have to shecht it. 46:50 You have to shecht it because the Ben Pakua ultimately again is its own entity. 46:54 Whose opinion does that reflect? 46:56 That reflects the opinion ultimately of Rabbi Meir. 46:59 But then you're also telling me that if the Ben Pakua dies without shechita, there's no tumas neveilah. 47:05 Why is there no tumas neveilah? 47:06 Because its neveilah status was removed with the shechita of its mother. 47:10 Because rabbosai remember again, what's the halacha that we remember we go back to this? 47:14 If you shecht a treifa, what's the halacha, what does that shechita accomplish if you shecht a treifa? 47:19 Doesn't permit the animal for consumption, but what does it do? 47:22 Removes tumas neveilah. So the shechita of the mother proactively removes tumas neveilah from the Ben Pakua. 47:29 Whose opinion is that? 47:30 That's the Rabbanan. The Gemara says: What? 47:32 So now you're adopting both opinions, Rabbi Meir and the Rabbanan? Ul'tameich, according to your logic, rabbosai I am on עין ה עמוד ב, 75B, five lines down from the top. 47:44 Ul'tameich, yet that which we said rabbosai that if you shecht a treifa, you find inside of the treifa a fully formed fetus, what's the halacha? 47:59 The fetus requires shechita and it's chayav in all the Kohanic gifts. 48:03 ואם מת טהור מלטמא במשא. And if it dies, there's no tumas neveilah. Taoun shechita, so that you said it requires shechita. 48:10 Whose opinion is that? 48:11 Whose opinion is that? 48:12 Ultimately keman, k'Rabbi Meir. That's Rabbi Meir. 48:15 ואם מת טהור מלטמא במשא and ultimately again if it dies, if it dies, it's no tumas massa. 48:22 Whose opinion is that? 48:23 K'Rabbanan. So the Gemara says: Which, so I don't understand, choose a team. 48:27 Choose a team. Whose opinion are you aligning with? 48:29 הא לא קשיא רבי אבא הא לא קשיא רבי חייא אם כבר מצאו מת קאמר. Oh. What's Rabbi Chiya's case? 48:36 Rabbi Chiya's case is where you already found the fetus dead inside of the mother. 48:39 That, that was the case, that the fetus had already passed away. 48:44 Okay. So the Gemara says that's the case rabbosai, then it makes a lot of sense l'maisa that it's saying that it therefore again it's pretty much reflecting that view, one singular view. 48:53 Ella l'didach kashya. But according to you it's still a kashya. 48:57 אמר ליה לדידי נמי לא קשיא. It's not a kashya for me either. 48:59 Why not? ד סימנים אכשרי רחמנא. So rabbosai watch this. 49:03 We keep on coming back to this statement now which is a brand-new, earth-shattering revelation by Ben Pakua. 49:09 That halacha l'maisa this phrase: ד סימנים אכשרי רחמנא. 49:13 That when it comes to Ben Pakua, Ben Pakua has two avenues for shechita. 49:19 Yes, it is permitted through the shechita of the mother, but in no way does that remove what? 49:25 Its own possibility for shechita as well. 49:27 ד סימנים אכשרי רחמנא. כי סליק רבי זירא אשכחיה לרבי אסי דיתיב וקאמר לה להא שמעתא. So rabbosai now watch this. 49:35 When Rabbi Zeira went to Eretz Yisrael, when he went to Eretz Yisrael, so Rabbi Zeira found Rabbi Assi דיתיב וקאמר לה להא שמעתא and he was giving over, he was giving over this particular statement. 49:49 Which statement? This statement of ד סימנים אכשרי רחמנא. 49:52 Amar lei: Yashar! So he said to him shkoiyach, right? 49:55 Rabbi Zeira said to Rabbi Assi shkoiyach. Yashar! ד סימנים אכשרי רחמנא. Ben Pakua... Ben Pekua has four simanim at its disposal. 50:03 Either it could be permitted through the shechita of the mother or it could be permitted through its own shechita. 50:07 וכן אמר רבי יוחנן. Rabbi Yochanan also said this. 50:10 Rabbi Yochanan also agreed with this idea ultimately, again, of ד' סימנים אחשריה רחמנא. 50:21 So the Gemara says מכלל דפליג עליה ריש לקיש. 50:23 So ultimately, Rabosai, now when we say that Rabbi Yochanan said this, it makes it sound like did Reish Lakish disagree with this? 50:26 So mishahava shayeil v'shasik, v'shasik lei. So Rabosai, that's actually quite interesting. 50:30 So what happened? So Rabosai, so what ended up happening over here is something quite fascinating. 50:34 So the Gemara says are we to assume the fact that it says וכן אמר רבי יוחנן, Rabbi Yochanan also holds like this, does that mean that halacha l'ma'aseh Rabbi Yochanan and Reish Lakish disagreed? 50:44 Rabosai, you know what we're going to do? 50:45 We're going to stop over here for today because this exchange Rabbi Yochanan—I know it's right before a two dot, right before a—but this exchange Rabbi Yochanan Reish Lakish is actually quite beautiful with a tremendous mussar haskeil. 50:54 So we'll just pick up with it tomorrow. 50:56 Rabosai, do not worry, we are right on track. 50:58 Just don't look ahead. 51:00 Don't, whatever you do, don't look ahead. 51:02 We are perfect Rabosai. 51:03 What a daf, what a daf! Shkoach everyone! 51:06 Tremendous. The journey continues tomorrow. 51:08 Shkoach everyone! Shkoach everyone, have a great day.
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