Transcript Translit עברית
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0:02 All right Rabosai good morning good morning a gut chodesh let us begin by thanking all of our sponsors for this morning's shiur to thank our Talmud Torah sponsors for the month of חודש אב הבא עלינו לטובה Mel and Karen Rom for dedicating all the shiurim and 0:17 drashas this month for a refuah sheleimah for Eliezer ben Elisheva as well as Ed and Iris Miller Adam and Dr. 0:25 Leslie Rosen l'illui nishmas Dr. 0:27 Joseph Miller חיים יוסף בן ראובן zichrono l'vracha and the friends of אברהמיאל בן פערל לאה in the zchus of a refuah sheleimah Yossi and Malka Cohen in memory of Rabbi Dr. 0:39 Nachum Schorr רב נחום בן רב חיים יהושע הלוי zichrono l'vracha a week of learning sponsors: Ari Bronstein this is a cute one Ari Bronstein with a thank you to the Silber family for allowing Blue Kangaroo Packouts team to provide service at your home. 0:56 We had a massive flood in our basement and baruch Hashem Ari Bronstein and his team were wonderful in clearing out our basement baruch Hashem. 1:06 Okay we do product placement now at Daf Yomi as well so if you would like to highlight your business or our Daf Yomi sponsors for today: Eyal and Sarah Steinberg in the zchus of continued health for Chana bas Sosha and for an ultimate refuah sheleimah. Rabosai 1:19 we have the merit of our Talmud Torah all the nishamos have an aliyah the family's nechama all those who need a refuah sheleimah together with kol cholei Yisrael. Hakadosh Baruch Hu should imirtzeh Hashem watch over our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisrael allow our holy soldiers to be successful 1:30 bechol ma'aseh yedeihem. And we pray to Hashem that although this month starts out as משנכנס אב ממעטין בשמחה who knows what we can accomplish and halevai we should be zocheh imirtzeh Hashem to a month of Av this month with a ribui proliferation amplification of beautiful simchas and 1:46 yishuos for all of Klal Yisrael. Rabosai with that let us begin we have a lot to do today baruch Hashem today's daf is ayin vav 76 we are picking up on עין ה עמוד ב 75b and we left off with כי סליק רבי זירא let's just pick up oh we 2:05 got a little bit further then but let's just pick up right over here which is 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 lines down from the top. 2:13 So the Gemara goes the Gemara says as follows: כי סליק רבי זירא אשכחיה לרבי אסי דיתיב וקאמר להא שמעתא so Rabbi Zeira in Eretz Yisrael he found Rabbi Assi sitting and saying over this ruling. 2:22 Which ruling? The ruling that Arba simanim that a ben pakua has four simanim. 2:27 It can either be shechted through its mother or again if that's not possible because let's say the mother was a treifa it could be shechted through its own simanim. Amar lei yasher said shkoiyach וכן אמר רבי יוחנן Rabbi Yochanan also paskened this way. 2:41 מכלל דפליג עליה ריש לקיש Now Rabosai what this makes it sound like it makes it sound like that Reish Lakish argued. 2:52 So the Gemara says is that true that Reish Lakish actually argue on this? 2:57 So the Gemara gives two possibilities: משום דהוה שתיק ליה. 3:02 So Rabosai this is actually quite fascinating if you look at Rashi מנהגו של ריש לקיש כשאמר רבי יוחנן שמעתא שאינו מודה לו there's a beautiful beautiful Rashi: so when when Rabbi Yochanan would say something that Reish Lakish would not agree with שהה ריש לקיש שעה או שתים קודם שיחלוק עליו Reish Lakish would be silent for an hour or two before 3:24 saying anything Ulai yachzor bo because maybe Rabbi Yochanan would retract his position ובתוך כך יצא רבי אסי ולא שמעו נחלק עליו. 3:33 So what happened? This is incredible. 3:34 So Rabbi Yochanan said something in the Beis Medrash and Reish Lakish was silent. 3:38 Now Reish Lakish was customarily silent because even if he disagreed he waited a little bit. 3:42 Wait a little bit. 3:43 During that pause period Rav Assi left the Beis Medrash. 3:47 So Rav Assi never knew did Reish Lakish respond later on did he not respond later on or an alternate version: V'ika d'amri משתה הוה שתי ושתיק ליה other possibility is that Rabbi Yochanan said something in the Beis Medrash Reish Lakish was taking a drink. 4:02 Right obviously when you're drinking most people can't drink and talk at the same time. 4:06 So Rav Assi left the Beis Medrash during that pause and therefore never knew exactly what it was that occurred. 4:13 And therefore again Rav Assi just wasn't sure. 4:15 Did Reish Lakish disagree or not disagree? 4:17 But Rabosai just understand the gadlus of this. 4:19 Right? Do you understand what this means? 4:21 When Rabbi Yochanan would say something Reish Lakish would vehemently disagree. 4:26 He would wait an hour or two before responding first of all for Rabbi Yochanan himself change his position. 4:32 But Rabosai more than that what a tremendous yesod in you have to hear you have to listen to people. 4:39 Even if you have your own opinions even if you have your own hashkafos even if you have your own ideas and ideals. 4:47 So much of what it takes to create a nation is the ability to listen and the ability to give people the space to express their ideas. 4:56 ideas, you may know out of the gate that you disagree. 4:59 Resh Lakish already knew from the moment that Rabbi Yochanan finished talking, he already knew that he disagreed. 5:05 He knew that he disagreed. 5:06 It wasn't like he was trying to, in Hebrew there's an expression like gibush rayonot. 5:10 It wasn't like he was trying to formulate his ideas. 5:12 He knew Rabbi Yochanan was wrong, at least he felt Rabbi Yochanan was wrong. 5:16 He waited. He waited. 5:18 Give people the chance to speak, give people the space to express their ideas. 5:21 And yes, then in a constructive way, if you disagree, express that as well. 5:27 Rabbosai, I just want to point out Hakadosh Baruch Hu has such a beautiful plan. 5:30 Understand, you may think that we are behind in Daf Yomi, but understand that we're not because Hakadosh Baruch Hu needed us to see this Gemara not yesterday. 5:39 The rest of the world saw it yesterday. 5:41 Hakadosh Baruch Hu put us a little bit ahead of the curve. 5:43 We got to see it today on Rosh Chodesh Av, when the ikar avodah of the nine days is bein adam l'chavero. 5:51 Our entire avodah during these days is: what can we do to be better to each other? 5:57 What can we do to build? 5:58 And what does the Gemara say? 6:00 It's not complicated. Listen. 6:03 Listen! Even if you know from the outset that you disagree, listen. 6:08 Great things come from listening because Rabbosai, we all know this. 6:12 If you listen to someone, when you voice your disagreement, they'll be so much more receptive to your dissenting opinion after knowing that they were heard. 6:22 People just want to be heard. 6:24 They want to be heard. 6:24 Okay, you want to disagree, you can disagree. 6:26 I know that you listened to me. 6:28 Listen, allow people to be heard, and then you have the absolute ability to also voice your particular opinion. 6:34 This is how you create shalom in Klal Yisrael. 6:35 People think that shalom means that everybody agrees. 6:38 We're Jews! No one ever agrees on anything, has ever, or will ever. 6:43 Shalom doesn't come from agreement. 6:45 Shalom comes from listening. 6:48 Incredible. Let's go inside. 6:49 רבי שמעון שזורי אומר, afilu... Rabbosai, I'm going back to the Mishnah. Rabbi Shimon Shezuri said in the Mishnah that halacha l'maaseh even if the ben pakuah is running around, ben pakuah's five years old, it still doesn't require any shechitah, you can just take a bite into it and eat it. 7:07 Says the Gemara, hainu tanna kamma? Isn't that the same thing as the Tanna Kamma? 7:10 Because the Tanna Kamma holds that a ben pakuah does not require shechitah. 7:14 To which the Gemara says, amar Rav Kahana: Rabbosai, now watch this. 7:19 Actually, the fundamental machlokes is as follows: What happens if a ben pakuah literally again exits the mother and begins to run around, literally it put its hooves on the ground? 7:30 Rabbosai, I want to say something fascinating. 7:31 Rabbi Shimon Shezuri says: totally muttar. 7:34 Totally muttar, not a problem. 7:37 The Rabbanan say: no. 7:38 Once it puts its hooves on the ground, it requires shechitah. 7:43 Why is that? Rashi points out over here: מדרבנן דאתי לאחלופי לאכול בהמה בלא שחיטה. 7:49 Because Rabbanan felt at that point in time you got to shecht it, because if it's running around on the ground, then people are going to get confused. 7:55 If people see you just taking a bite out of an animal that's running around, people don't know if it's a ben pakuah, not a ben pakuah. 8:01 So Rabbosai, this is really fascinating. 8:03 So even the Rabbanan who hold that a ben pakuah is permitted through the shechitah of its mother will say that if that ben pakuah walks around, it puts its hooves on the ground, you have to shecht it. 8:14 Not mi'd'oraisa, but mi'd'rabannan, almost like a maris ayin type of thing because people are just going to get confused. 8:20 Rabbi Shimon Shezuri says: no. Once a ben pakuah, always a ben pakuah. 8:24 Doesn't matter if you're slaughtering it right from the womb and doesn't matter if it ran around for five years. 8:28 Either way, a ben pakuah does not require any level of shechitah. 8:32 Incredible. Amar Mesharsheya: לדברי האומר חוששין לזרע האב בן פקוע בא על בהמה מעליותא הולד אין לו תקנה. So Rabbosai, this is fascinating. 8:40 According to the opinion that says chosheshin l'zera ha'av, which means that even in animals you have to take into account both parents, not just the mother, so interestingly enough, let's say you have a father that is a ben pakuah that has offspring with 8:53 a mother that's a regular animal. 8:56 So the Gemara suggests that child has no takkanah. 8:59 That child is treif, you can't eat it. 9:00 The offspring is treif. 9:01 Why? Rashi points out over here because halacha l'maaseh essentially we look at it like this. 9:07 We look at it as follows: that halacha l'maaseh, the ben pakuah is shechted already. 9:14 The father is shechted already. 9:16 The mother has two simanim, which means in halacha, the child essentially only has one siman. 9:21 That's the way we look at the child. 9:22 And therefore again, the child just can't be eaten because ultimately again it comes from a father that has no simanim from a mother that has two simanim and therefore the child is going to be... 9:34 I don't want to say the word treif, but essentially unrectifiable, unshechtable. 9:40 Amar Abaye: הכל מודים בכלאים בן פקוע שמרתיע. And Rabbosai, what I do want to point out however is just understand, if halacha l'maaseh you have a father ben pakuah and a mother ben pakuah, then their offspring is a ben pakuah as well. 9:54 In other words, technically speaking... 9:56 if you wanted to create a line of shechita-free kosher animals, so the way to do it is mate, mate two ben pakuas together and you're good to go, you're good to go, there's no shechita necessary. 10:10 However, again, if one of the parents is a ben pakua, that's actually a problem because then the offspring itself is considered to be fundamentally deficient. 10:18 Okay, Abbaye says as follows: הכל מודים בקלוט בן פקוע שמוטר. 10:22 This is interesting. What happens if you have a ben pakua that is kalut? Kalut means that its hooves are not cloven. 10:30 Its hooves are together. 10:31 They're not split. Everyone agrees that even if that animal ran around, it's still going to be muttar. 10:36 What's the reason? In other words, you don't need shechita. Mai ta'ama? 10:39 What's the reason? כל מילתא דתמיהא מדכר דכירי אינשי. 10:43 Because anything that's strange people pay attention to. 10:45 In other words, first of all, to have a calf with uncloven hooves is strange. 10:50 So people will always know, oh, that's the uncloven hoof, sorry, the uncloven hoof ben pakua. 10:55 All right, there's probably a shorter way to remember that. 10:58 But all right, right, that's the ben pakua with uncloven hooves. 11:00 So because it's strange, because it's an abnormality, people will understand it and therefore there's no concern that people will get confused. 11:06 Ika d'amri others say, amar Abbaye, הכל מודים בקלוט בן קלוטה בן פקוע שמוטר. 11:13 Others say no, no, what it means is if you have an animal that's a calf that is uncloven, that is the child of a ben pakua that is uncloven, that's muttar. 11:22 That's muttar. You could eat that even if it runs around without shechita. 11:27 Why? The Gemara says, mai ta'ama? 11:30 תרי תמיהי מדכר דכירי אינשי. Because people remember two strange things. 11:34 In this case, the two strange things is number one it's a ben pakua that itself is a kalut and the offspring is also a kalut. 11:39 Okay, point that the Gemara is making is if you have some type of strange situation over here, it could very well be that even the Rabbanan would agree that if the ben pakua's running around, you could eat it without shechita. 11:50 Why? Because since it's quote-unquote abnormal, people remember abnormalities and they won't come to get confused with regular animals. 11:56 Amar Zeiri, amar Rabbi Chanina, הלכה כרבי שמעון שזורי. The halacha is like Rabbi Shimon Shezuri. 12:03 Again I'll just mention Rabbi Shimon Shezuri says that when it comes to a ben pakua, halacha l'maaseh, even if it's running around, you could still eat it without shechita. 12:12 וכן היה רבי שמעון שזורי מתיר בבנו ובן בנו עד סוף כל הדורות. And Rabbi Shimon Shezuri said, again I'll say now this is the case we just mentioned before: if you have a ben pakua that mates with a ben pakua and you keep that yichus up, technically speaking, you can create, you know, a literally a 12:30 stream of animals which do not require any kind of shechita. 12:35 Okay, interesting business idea. 12:37 Says the Gemara: Rabbi Yochanan says, הוא מותר ובנו אסור. 12:41 So Rabbi Yochanan says, no, no, no, the heter of a ben pakua is only going to be for the ben pakua itself, but its offspring is going to require shechita. Ada bar Chavu havah lei ben pakua denafal deiba. 12:51 Listen to this. Ada bar Chavu had a ben pakua, an animal's a ben pakua denafal deiba. 12:55 Now I'll say it's actually quite interesting because dov usually means bear. 12:59 Rashi over here translates it as translates it as z'ev, as a wolf. 13:04 So Ada bar Chavu ultimately again had a ben pakua that was attacked by that was attacked by a wolf. 13:11 So the Gemara says nafal deiba alei. 13:13 אתא לקמיה דרב אשי. Ultimately again he came before Rav Ashi. Amar lei zil shachtei. 13:19 And he said, and Rav Ashi said, Rav Ashi said, quick, shecht it! 13:22 Now again remember, it was attacked by a wolf, so b'pashut it was a tereifah, a tereifah. 13:28 So he said, quickly shecht it before it dies! 13:31 Amar lei, והא אמר זירי אמר רבי חנינא הלכה כרבי שמעון שזורי. One second, why do you have to shecht it? 13:35 Why do you have to shecht it? 13:36 It is a ben pakua. 13:38 So why does it require shechita at all? 13:39 So the Gemara says, והא אמר זירי אמר רבי חנינא הלכה כרבי שמעון שזורי, וכן היה רבי שמעון שזורי מתיר בבנו ובן בנו עד סוף כל הדורות. ואפילו רבי יוחנן לא קאמר אלא בבנו אבל איהו לא. 13:58 And even Rabbi Yochanan again, halacha l'maaseh argued on the offspring of a ben pakua, but certainly agreed that the ben pakua itself does not require shechita. 14:05 So why in this case ultimately again was Rav Ashi telling him to shecht the ben pakua? Amar lei, רבי יוחנן לדברי רבי שמעון שזורי קאמר. 14:16 Ultimately again I'll say so Rabbi Yochanan was saying Rabbi Yochanan himself wasn't espousing a psak, he was just highlighting the shita of Rabbi Shimon Shezuri. 14:25 Okay. ואמר רבא בר חנינא amar Ulla amar Rav Chanina, הלכה כרבי שמעון שזורי. 14:30 Right so again I'll say another opinion that says הלכה כרבי שמעון שזורי. 14:32 And again I'll say so just to point out, Rabbi Shimon Shezuri still lives in the chachamim camp, namely that both the chachamim and Rabbi Shimon Shezuri agree that a ben pakua, even a fully formed nine-month-old living fetus, is permitted with the shechita of its mother. 14:47 Right, what are they disagreeing what's the machlokes between Rabbi Shimon Shezuri and the chachamim? 14:52 If that ben pakua starts running around, the chachamim say at that point you gotta shecht. 14:56 You gotta shacht it because again, it's just gonna cause mass confusion if you consume that animal without shechita. Shimon Shazuri says no, once a Ben Pakua always a Ben Pakua and halacha l'maiseh can be consumed even without shechita. V'lo od, not only that, אלא כל מקום שנה שמעון השזורי במשנתנו הלכה כמותו. 15:17 Not only that, but wherever the halacha follows Shimon Shazuri, ultimately again the halacha follows him. 15:23 אמר ליה אנא כי אתאי לידי דרבי יוחנן הלכה כשמעון השזורי במסוכן ובתרומת מעשר של דמאי. So again interesting, he responded back, look, I also hold that the halacha follows Shimon Shazuri, but not in every case. 15:37 Not in every case. 15:38 The halacha follows Shimon Shazuri in two cases. 15:41 What are the two cases? 15:42 Number one, mesukan, the case of danger which we'll talk about in just a moment and trumas maaser of demai. 15:49 What are the cases over here? 15:50 Mesukan. So as we've seen this case a number of times, detnan, If a man is being led out, kolar means usually again to go ahead, Rashi says, to be executed. 16:06 He's being led out to be executed and he says, kisvu get l'ishti. 16:10 Now again, raboise, in general, if a man's going to give an instruction for someone to give a get to his wife, he has to say kisvu u'snu, write and give. 16:20 If you just say write but you don't say give, that is incomplete instructions and the agents wouldn't be permitted to deliver the get based on that instruction because maybe he's just saying, you know, look, Reuven likes to be prepared, you 16:34 never know what's going to happen, you know, so he says, write a get, I don't know that I'm using it, not using it, but write a get. 16:40 So usually failure to say u'snu would prevent the agents from delivering the get. 16:45 However, listen to this, yotzei b'kolar means someone's being led out to be executed. 16:49 So b'pashtus, if Reuven's being led out to be executed, chas v'shalom, then what, then what, it could be that his mind obviously is not clear. 16:56 He's a little preoccupied with his imminent demise. 16:58 So therefore we understand that his failure or his omission of u'snu of give is just due to his situational confusion, right, or overwhelmingness and therefore and therefore again we could give the get based on that. 17:14 So the Gemara says, Chasru lomar, furthermore they said, אף המפרש והיוצא בשיירה. 17:19 So they said not only that, they also then included if somebody was going on a long journey, shayarah literally means a caravan, which these things also represented inherent danger. 17:29 And he says to a group, kisvu get l'ishti, but he forgot to write, he forgot to say u'snu. 17:35 We understand that u'snu is included. 17:37 We understand that even though he didn't say it, we we understand and the only reason he omitted it is because he was confused. 17:44 So the Gemara says, שמעון השזורי אומר אף המסוכן. 17:48 Shimon Shazuri says also if somebody is dangerously ill. 17:51 Let's say, chas v'shalom, someone's deathly ill, right, so too if they said, kisvu get l'ishti, but he didn't say u'snu, Shimon Shazuri says we also understand that he also meant u'snu but just because of the overwhelming nature of his circumstances he forgot to say it. 18:06 So that therefore the Gemara says, the halacha follows Shimon Shazuri in this case. 18:10 Next case, תרומת מעשר של דמאי. So as we remember again, trumas maaser is you have to give, you have to give maaser to the Levi, right? 18:19 The Levi himself has to take a portion of, right, a portion from his maaser and give that to the Kohen. 18:25 That portion is called trumas maaser. Demai, remember again, refers to the produce of an am ha'aretz where again we have to be concerned that an am ha'aretz did not properly tithe this produce. 18:36 Now, raboise, in reality, most am ha'aretzim do tithe their produce. 18:41 That's usually how we operate, they do tithe their produce. 18:44 But again because we have this concern, if you purchase produce from an am ha'aretz, we make you tithe it again. 18:49 So watch this, what's this case over here? 18:51 דתנן תרומת מעשר של דמאי שחזרה למקומה. Now, raboise, now watch this, what happens if you have trumas maaser of demai that got back mixed in together with the maaser? 19:03 It got back mixed in. 19:04 Now, in general, you need a very high level of bittul in order to allow you to consume that. 19:09 Let's say you don't have the requisite shiur for bittul, which means that the whole thing is going to become assur. 19:14 So what can you do? 19:15 שמעון השזורי אומר אף בחול שואלו ואוכלו על פיו. Even during the week, you ask the am ha'aretz, am ha'aretz, did you tithe? 19:23 Did you take the trumas maaser? 19:24 And if he says yes, you could rely on his statement and move forward. 19:28 Again, raboise, Rashi points out why does it say even b'chol, not b'Shabbos, because again, Shabbos in general is more difficult to rectify these things because Shabbos you can't take trumas maaser. 19:37 But even during the week you could rely on the statement of the am ha'aretz and therefore consume the produce. 19:43 Again, raboise, shkoiach, that brings ultimately again an end to this sugya. 19:46 Now again, we have a lot of halacha l'maiseh to do on this, right? 19:49 We have to go through the whole halacha l'maiseh on ben pakua. 19:52 We're not going to do it today. 19:53 You know, I always again, we are going to do it because we have... 19:56 do it because this is Yoreh De'ah Siman Yud Gimmel in Shulchan Aruch where we'll see all of these halachos. 20:01 How do we pasken by Ben Pekua? 20:02 Like Rabbi Meir, like the Chachamim, like Rabbi Shimon Shezuri. 20:06 Again, the reason I'm not doing it today is because we should start today's daf for a few minutes before we go ahead and we do the halacha, but I'm keeping the Shulchan Aruch handy. 20:15 Right? If for some reason we get kfitzas haderech and we finish today's daf with a few minutes to spare, im yirtzeh Hashem, I'll go back. 20:20 If not, tomorrow im yirtzeh Hashem. 20:22 Says the Mishna. Says the Mishna, but I will, I promise it to you. 20:25 Says the Mishna: בהמה שנחתכו רגליה מן הארכובה ולמטה. 20:28 So as I remember again, so now we have now we have another case ultimately again of a behemah, of an animal, where we're, once again, we're back in this sugya a little bit regarding treifos. 20:40 We've spoken about this before. 20:42 We're going to be focusing over here on the tzomet hagidim. 20:46 Right? The tzomet hagidim is that point in the animal where halacha l'ma'aseh, again, you have like the convergence of multiple sinews. 20:52 Depending on the type of animal will determine the number of sinews. 20:55 But says the Gemara as follows: בהמה שנחתכו רגליה מן הארכובה ולמטה. 21:00 Ultimately again, if the, Mushy, can you, there's a good picture in the Artscroll that I did not, I meant to post it yesterday just in the, right in the Mishna, if you don't mind, just thank you. 21:11 So if you have an animal, thank you, I'm sorry, you have an animal that ultimately again its leg was cut min ha'arkuvah u'lemata. 21:18 Now from the joint and below, kasherah. Min ha'arkuvah u'lemala psulah. 21:23 Ultimately again from the joint and above it's going to be psul. 21:26 We'll see what these joints are in just a moment. 21:28 וכן שניטל צומת הגידים. So too again if that, what we call that juncture of sinews, that's where all the sinews come together, if that is torn ultimately again or literally removed, but really means torn, that is going to create issur as well. 21:43 Nishbar ha'etzem. So there's an interesting case. 21:46 What happens if the, and again these are all talking about bones in the leg, if the bone broke in the leg to a point that it tore through the flesh, right? 21:55 So it's protruding outside of the flesh. 21:57 אם רוב הבשר קיים. If the majority of the flesh is still intact, shechitato metaharato. 22:02 Ultimately again the shechitah is metahar it. 22:05 Now we'll see what metahar means over here also. 22:09 Is it the limb, is it the animal? 22:11 V'im lav, and if not, ein shechitato metaharato. 22:14 Ultimately again the shechitah is not going to be metahar. 22:17 Okay, so Rabbosai, now we're going to look at this image im yirtzeh Hashem and we're going to see inside exactly exactly what we are referring to over here. 22:28 אמר רב יהודה אמר רב. So Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav. Amar Rav Chiya, lemata, min ha'arkuvah. 22:34 Ultimately again when we say below, below means directly below the joint. 22:38 Again Rabbosai, we're going to see which joint we're talking about in just a moment. 22:43 Lemala, min ha'arkuvah. And ultimately again above, above means above the joint. 22:49 Be'eizeh arkuvah? So which joint, which joint are we referring to over here? 22:54 So the Gemara says: be'eizeh arkuvah amru? 22:56 בארכובה הנמכרת עם הראש. Ultimately again this refers to the joint which was customarily sold together with the head. 23:07 Now again Rabbosai, we're going to see, this is what's called, this is what's called customarily the arkuvah tachtonah, the lower joint, which is also known as the tarsus, T-A-R-S-U-S. 23:18 We'll see it on the image in just a moment. 23:20 Right? Ultimately, so that is the, that is the joint that is so, and again when it says it was sold together with the head, Rashi just points out that's just the way it was sold. 23:27 That's not like that that is just halacha l'ma'aseh the, that's just the nature of the way it was sold. 23:33 Ulla amar, so Rabbosai, that's our first opinion. 23:35 Ulla says, Mushy? Oh, I'm on thank you, watch out, okay good. 23:46 So Ulla says, so Rabbosai, so again, so you can see that first opinion, that's what they call the arkuvah tachtonah, the lower joint, the tarsus. 23:54 So the Gemara says, Ulla says: אולא אמר רבי אושעיה, kneged b'gamal nikar. 23:57 Ultimately again, kneged b'gamal nikar. Ulla disagrees. 24:01 Ulla says it's not talking about the lower joint, it's actually talking about what we call arkuvah elyonah, the upper joint, which on a camel, interestingly enough, the way a camel works is you could see the front of that joint actually on 24:16 the camel's leg itself. 24:17 Okay. So Rabbosai, fundamental machlokes as to which joint the Mishna is talking about. 24:22 אמר ליה עולא לרב יהודה. So Ulla said to Rav Yehuda, בשלמא לדידי דאמינא כנגד בגמל ניכר. 24:28 So Ulla said to Rav Yehuda, according to me because remember Ulla says it refers to what we call the arkuvah elyonah, the upper joint. 24:35 So according to me it makes sense, kneged b'gamal nikar, because I say the joint that the Gemara the Mishna is talking about is the joint which can be seen on the front of the camel's leg. 24:48 Haynu d'ktani, וכן שניטל צומת הגידים. That's why the Mishna also says and If the tzomes hagidin was removed, Ella l'didach but according to you, מאי וכן שניטל צומת הגידין? 25:02 What is meant when the Mishna says and also if the tzomes hagidin was removed? 25:06 Amar lei, he said, amar lei רקובה בלא צומת הגידין. 25:09 I say what it means is like this, that ultimately again, you could have a case where the bone is cut without the tzomes hagidin, צומת הגידין בלא רקובה, and ultimately again if the tzomes hagidin is cut without the bone. 25:23 In other words, so ultimately he'll respond that either one of those will also make the animal a treifa, whether you have the bone fully cut and the tzomes hagidin intact or the tzomes hagidin cut with the bone intact. 25:34 Ai vehanichtechu katani? But that's not what the Mishna says. 25:37 The Mishna says nichtechu, which means they're both cut, which seems to indicate they are talking about both the tzomes hagidin and the bone. 25:45 Ishtik, he was quiet. 25:46 L'basar dinapak, after he left, אמר מאי טעמא לא אמרי ליה למטה למטה מן הארכובה למעלה למעלה מצומת הגידין? 25:53 After he left he said why didn't I respond that l'mata means below the joint and ultimately again l'mala refers to above the tzomes hagidin? 26:02 הדר אמר ולא אמרי ליה, so afterwards he said well I did say that, ואמר לי נחתכו קתני, but he responded to me that the Mishna uses the lashon of nichtechu, which means they were both cut. 26:14 הכא נמי מן הארכובה ולמעלה קתני, so too over here it means min haRakuva from the joint and above. 26:20 Rav Pappa, so rabosai, so therefore again, just summarize for just a moment, right, the Mishna says ultimately if you have a beheima that the leg was cut min haRakuva u'l'mata, from the joint and below it is kosher, from the joint and above it's 26:35 possul. Fundamental machlokes Rav Yehuda, Rav Yehuda or I should say Rav Chiya and Ulla which joint are we talking about? 26:45 So ultimately again one opinion says Rakuva haTachtona and one says Rakuva haElyona. 26:50 So that's our fundamental machlokes over here which joint. 26:53 As again all the Mishna tells me is above the joint the animal is possul, animal's a treifa, below the joint the animal is kosher, fundamental which joint on the leg of the animal are we discussing. 27:06 Good. רב פפא מתני הכי. Rav Pappa said as follows: אמר רב יהודה אמר רב אמר רב חייא למטה למטה מן הארכובה ומצומת הגידין. 27:15 So rabosai different version in Rav Yehuda in the name of Rav, in the name of Rav Chiya. 27:20 What is l'mata? L'mata means below the Rakuva haTachtona, the tarsus, below the, right, below the lower joint and also below the tzomes hagidin. 27:31 That's when the animal is going to be kosher. 27:33 So Gemara says u'miTzomes Hagidin, וכן שניטל צומת הגידין. 27:37 So if the, and so too again if the tzomes hagidin was removed as well, the halacha l'maiseh they're going to make the animal into a into a treifa. V'haRakuva gufa, what about if it was cut on the joint itself? 27:49 K'd'Ulla amar be'Ushaya, then the halacha ultimately again would follow Ulla in the name of Rav Ushaya. 27:54 So Gemara says wait a second, ומי איכא מידי דאילו מדלי פסיק ליה וחיה מנכית ליה פסיק ליה ומתה? 27:55 So the Gemara says I don't understand. 28:03 Is there something ultimately again where if you look at Rashi by the way, Rashi says over here, it's Rashi: ומי איכא מידי דכי מדלי פסיק ליה למעלה מן צומת הגידין בעצם אמצעי כשירה וכשמשפיל לחותכה בצומת טרפה. 28:18 So the Gemara's just puzzled by this idea, is there something where on the same limb if you cut it higher ultimately again it's a treifa it'll die, if you cut it lower nothing impacts it? 28:28 Gemara just seems to find that strange. 28:30 Amar Rav Ashi, טרפות כמה דמיין להדדי? So Gemara says rabosai we know we've seen this before. 28:36 When it comes to treifos, essentially remember what the Gemara always answers when it comes to treifos, don't ask questions. 28:41 Why? Because treifos is not based on logic, treifos is based on reality. 28:46 That there are certain sensitive spots on the animal in which if the animal is injured will react differently. 28:52 טרפות כמה דמיין להדדי אין אומרים בטרפות זו דומה לזו. By treifos we do not go ahead and make comparisons. 28:59 שהרי חותכה מכאן ומתה חותכה מכאן וחיה. Because at the end of the day by a treifa if you cut it here it'll live and if you cut it there it'll die. 29:10 ואלו הן צומת הגידין, so the Gemara says by the way, so now rabosai fine. 29:14 So now what we've established is that halacha l'maiseh fundamental machlokes about which joint are we talking about, right? 29:20 The Mishna gives me a rule, that if the animal is cut above the joint ultimately it's a treifa, which means, right, it's a treifa, cut below the joint ultimately again it's kosher. 29:30 Which joint? Fundamental machlokes. 29:32 The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is tzomes hagidin. 29:36 That if the tzomes hagidin is severed, now how much of it is severed we'll have to see, if the tzomes hagidin is severed the animal is a treifa. 29:44 To which now the Gemara asks by the way, ואלו הן צומת הגידין? 29:47 What is where exactly is the tzomes hagidin or what is the tzomes hagidin? 29:52 רבא אמר רב אשי d'argima de'agarmo ulevari. So let's take a look at Rashi. Rashi is 2, 4, 6, 8, about 10, 9-10 lines up from the bottom. 30:05 de'agarmo ulevari משיוצאין הגידין מן העצם ומהלכין בבשר שעצם למעלה מן הפרק ערום בלא בשר כשתי וג' אצבעות והגידין אדוקין בו. So Rabosai, very interesting. 30:18 ומקום שמתפרשין ממנו למעלה משם מתחילין. From the point where the sinews, right the sinews, begin to separate from the bone. 30:27 Where they're more, where they're more visible and separate and distinct from the bone. 30:31 That's ultimately again the sinews, literally de'agarmo means from the bone ulevari on the outside. 30:41 So it's the point on the animal where the sinews become, we call it detached, but it doesn't mean detached, but more separate and visible from the bone. 30:48 רבה בר רב הונא amar Rav Ashi de'agarmo uleigav. He says just the opposite. 30:54 He says that halacha l'maiseh it's actually the point where the sinews are most attached and most embedded by the bone. 31:01 So fundamental machlokes exactly where the tsomas hagiddin is. 31:05 רבא בריה דרבא בר רב הונא amar Rav Assi de'ilui arkuma. Rashi says de'ilui arkuma, Rashi says over here, עצם קטן הוא המחבר את הפרקים ומה שיש מן הגידין ולמעלה הימנו המקום שמתפרשין קרוי צומת. 31:22 So literally again there's a small bone that ultimately brings together the joints and that space in that area from that area where the giddin ultimately branch out that's called the tsomas hagiddin. 31:32 Okay, יתיב חד מרבנן קמיה דרבי אבא. So there was one of the rabbanan who sat before Rabbi Abba ve'yasiv ve'ka'amar and said the following, heicha depari tavchi. 31:41 Interesting, the tsomas hagiddin is the place where the butcher begins to flay the animal. 31:46 Right, on the leg where he begins to flay the animal that's the tsomas hagiddin. 31:49 והיינו רבא בריה דרבא בר רב הונא אמר רב אסי. Okay, that's the same position as Rava espoused. 31:56 Amar Rav Yehuda amar Shmuel, tsomas hagiddin she'amru. The tsomas hagiddin that we mentioned in the mishna, מקום שהגידין צומתין בו. 32:03 It is the place where the giddin join together, come together, right, which Rabosai is the way, just so you understand when we were back in ayleh treifos, that's also the way we classically understood tsomas hagiddin. 32:13 It's the place where the majority of these sinews, right, really come together. 32:18 Vead kama? How far does it extend? 32:20 אמרינהו רבנן דרבי יעקב שמי. כי הוינא בי רב יהודה אמר לן. שמעו מיני מילתא דמגברא רבא שמיע לי. Because those who listen to this. 32:31 So there was one time there was a talmid chacham and his name was Rabbi Yaakov and when he was in front, when he was in the yeshiva of Rav Yehuda he said, he announced, listen to me, I have something really good to say 32:40 from a great man. 32:41 Who is the great man? 32:42 Umanu Shmuel. Mai amar Shmuel? What did Shmuel say? 32:45 tsomas hagiddin she'amru מקום שהגידין צומתין בו. The tsomas hagiddin that is the place ultimately again where the sinews join together, join together there, וממקום שצומתין עד מקום שמתפשטין. 33:00 And again Rabosai, literally, and the area of the, so the tsomas hagiddin begins ultimately again where the giddin come together and where does it extend to? 33:08 It extends to where the giddin spread apart, where they, where they extend out. 33:12 Vekama? How, what is the size of this area? 33:15 Amar Abayei arba betiti betura. It is the size of four fingerbreadths in an ox, an ox being a large animal. 33:23 Bedaka mai? What about in a small animal? 33:26 What's the size, what's the area of the tsomas hagiddin? Amar Abayei beliti havo tsomas hagiddin. Rabosai, if you look at Rashi, Rashi says beliti Before the sinews get back absorbed into the flesh that's the area of tsomas hagiddin. 33:42 So the gemara says בליה בליה לא הוו צומת הגידין. 33:46 Ultimately again when the sinews are visible they're not absorbed that's tsomas hagiddin. Belia once they're absorbed into the flesh it's no longer tsomas hagiddin. 33:56 The gemara says אשוני הוו צומת הגידין. 33:59 Ashuni means when they're tough, right, when the sinews are tough that's the area of tsomas hagiddin. 34:03 רכיכי לא הוו צומת הגידין. If the sinews are soft that's not the tsomas hagiddin. 34:09 אלימי הוו צומת הגידין. If the sinews are thick that's the area of tsomas hagiddin. 34:13 קטיני לא הוו צומת הגידין. If they're thin that's not tsomas hagiddin. 34:18 חיוורי הוו צומת הגידין. If they're white in color, lighter in color, that's tsomas hagiddin. 34:22 לא חיוורי לא הוו צומת הגידין. If they're not white that's not the tsomas hagiddin. 34:27 Incredible. Amud beis. מר בר רב אשי אמר. So מר בר רב אשי אמר כיון דזיגי אף על גב דלא חיוורי. 34:33 Mar bar Rav Ashi said by the way they don't have to be white. 34:36 They just have to be of a clearer color, of a clearer lighter color. 34:41 That's the tsomas hagiddin. Incredible. 34:43 So Amar Amimar. So Amimar says as follows, אמר אמימר משמיה דרב זביד. 34:49 Tlasa chuti havo. Rabosai, interesting, Amimar said that in the tsomas hagiddin there's three primary sinews, three primary sinews. 34:56 So the Gemorah says חד אלימא ותרי קטיני. 34:59 One is very thick and two are very thin. 35:02 Ifsik alima, look, rabosai, fourth line down, seventy-six B. 35:06 Ifsik alima, if the thicker sinew is split, is cut, azda rov binyan, then the majority of the structure of the tzomes hagidin has been compromised. 35:16 Ifsik katini, if the thinner sinews have been cut, azda rov minyan, the majority of the number of sinews has now been compromised. 35:25 מר בר רב אשי מתני לקולא, so מר בר רב אשי ultimately he phrased this as a leniency. 35:30 How did he say it? 35:31 Ifsik alima, if the thin sinews were cut, ha'ika rov minyan. 35:35 The good news is, sorry, if the thick sinew was cut, the good news is the majority of the sinews are still intact. 35:42 The Gemorah says ifsik katini, if the thin ones were cut, ha'ika rov binyan. 35:47 Ultimately again, there is still the majority. 35:51 Incredible. Ba'ofos, when it comes to birds, shisar chutei havu, there are sixteen sinews. 35:57 Sixteen sinews. So the Gemorah, rabosai, just there's a tremendous mussar haskeil in this as well. 36:02 If you notice just the way that was phrased, oh well, let's go. 36:05 Okay, so let's we'll I'll come back to it along with halacha l'maisa. Ba'ofos, shisar chutei havu. 36:11 By birds there are sixteen sinews in the tzomes hagidin. 36:14 אי פסיק חד מיני טריפה. That's actually very interesting. 36:17 If even one of the sinews is cut by the tzomes hagidin of the bird, ultimately the bird is a treifa. 36:24 אמר מר בר רב אשי הוה קאימנא קמיה דאבא v'aiso lekamei ofa. I was one time standing right I was one time present in front of abba, and they brought before him a bird, right, and there was a shayla in terms of the tzomes hagidin. U'vadak, he checked the bird, ve'ashkach bi'chamishar havu. 36:41 Ultimately again and he found that there were only fifteen sinews. 36:44 Now that would seem to automatically indicate that the bird was a treifa. 36:47 So interestingly enough, chad shani michavrei, but they noticed, they noticed that one of the sinews looked a little bit different than the others, naftzei ve'ashkach try. 36:58 It turned out that the one that looked a little bit different they saw had was really two sinews stuck together. 37:05 And they split it apart and it turned out that ultimately again it was in fact a kosher bird. 37:09 Rabosai, sometimes you just have to look a little bit harder to see the good. 37:13 Sometimes the good is apparent, sometimes the good is obvious, sometimes the kosher status of another yid is very apparent and very visible. 37:20 Sometimes at first glance another person looks totally traif, but if you go ahead and you look a little bit harder, you look a little bit deeper, you'd be surprised about the beauty and the kashrus that you could find. 37:31 אמר רב יהודה אמר רב צומת הגידין שאמרו ברובו. So ultimately again rabosai, so tzomes hagidin that we've spoken about ultimately again has a din in rov. Mai berubo? Berov echad me'hen. Rabosai, interesting, what does that mean? 37:44 If even the majority of one sinew, even if the majority ultimately again of one sinew is going to be compromised, then Rashi says מיפסק רוב של אחד מהן טריפה. 37:55 Even if the majority of one sinew is severed, the animal is traif. 38:02 So rabosai, it's pretty wild, right, so by tzomes hagidin the Gemorah says even if halacha l'maisa the majority of one sinew, I should say Rav Yehuda is saying this in the name of Rav, the majority of one sinew is severed, the animal is 38:15 a traif. Shmuel said I don't understand, there are three primary sinews in the tzomes hagidin. 38:22 כי מיפסק חד מינייהו לגמרי האיכא תרי. But I don't understand, if one of the sinews is severed, shouldn't we rely on rov? 38:28 You still have two more which are intact. 38:30 So why should the animal be a treifa? Ta'ama d'ika try, now the reason there's two, the reason is there's two, ha'leika try lo, u'pleigi d'Ravina. 38:39 And this argues with Ravina. 38:42 The Gemorah says אמר רבינא אמר שמואל צומת הגידין אפילו לא נשתייר בה אלא כחוט הסרבל כשירה. 38:47 So rabosai, there is a totally alternate opinion over here. 38:49 This other opinion of Ravina says when it comes to tzomes hagidin, as long as you have some amount of it intact, the animal is going to be kosher. 38:58 Literally k'chut hasarbel means like the thread of a cloak. 39:00 Even if you have a tiny little thread of the tzomes hagidin intact, the animal itself is still going to be kosher. 39:08 So rabosai, this is a pretty major machlokes. 39:10 So first opinion says if any amount of the tzomes hagidin is missing, so even if the majority of one sinew is missing, which means the clear majority is still intact, the animal's a treifa. 39:23 Second opinion says as long as there is any amount of the tzomes hagidin intact, the animal's still going to be kosher. 39:31 So fundamental polar opposite machlokes. Ve'ika d'amri, others say, mai rubo, what does it mean the majority? 39:37 רוב כל אחד ואחד. Others say what it means is like this: if the majority of each sinew ultimately again is cut, then halacha l'maisa the animal is going to be a treifa. 39:50 כי אמריתי קמיה דשמואל אמר לי מכדי תלתא הוו. I don't understand, there are three primary sinews. 39:58 Ha'ika... even if the majority of each right, even if two-thirds of each sinew are cut, there's still one third of each sinew that's intact, misayei lei l'Rav. 40:06 This comes to support the opinion of Rav, This supports the opinion of Shmuel because Shmuel said that halacha l'maiseh even if any amount, even if a small thread of the tsomet hagidin is intact, halacha l'maiseh the animal is still going to be kasher. 40:25 So rabosai, it turns out so interestingly enough, the mishna says, mishna makes like everyone agrees that if the tsomet hagidin is cut, the animal is going to be a treifa. 40:33 And that is true, everyone does agree with that. 40:35 What's the machlokes? How much of the tsomet hagidin do you need to remain intact in order for the animal to be kasher, or conversely, how much of the tsomet hagidin needs to be severed in order for the animal to be a treifa? 40:47 That is a fundamental machlokes. 40:49 A little bit again, it runs the gamut from essentially even if one-third right, even if some part of one sinew is missing, it's a treifa, to the other opinion that says as long as something is still intact, it's still kasher. 41:03 So that's our fundamental machlokes. 41:05 Again, we have to add to the list of halacha l'maiseh that we have to do as well. 41:09 Nishbar ha'etsem. So rabosai, remember again this was the next case in the mishna. 41:11 Next case in the mishna was if the bone, we're talking about the bone in the animal's one of the legs broke, and we're talking about a case where it popped through the flesh. 41:21 So now remember again the mishna said in this case, the mishna said נשבר העצם אם רוב הבשר קיים שחיטתו מטהרתו ואם לאו אין שחיטתו מטהרתו. 41:34 So the mishna really said like this: if the majority of the flesh is intact, then ultimately again the shechita will work. 41:41 If the majority of the flesh is not intact, then the shechita, the mishna used lashon of mutteraso. 41:46 So what does this mean? 41:48 Amar Rav. So Rav said, by the way, למעלה מן הארכובה אם רוב הבשר קיים הרי זה וזה מותר. 41:53 So rabosai, this is very interesting. 41:55 So now once again the gemara wants to frame this as: where is the breakage taking place? 42:01 So Rav said if the breakage took place lemala min ha'arkuva, above the joint, then ultimately again as long as the majority of the flesh is intact, zeh v'zeh mutter. Zeh v'zeh means both the limb and the animal are both kasher. V'im lav, but if it took place below 42:18 the joint, zeh v'zeh assur. Both the limb as well as the animal will both be assur. Lemata min ha'arkuva, if it's below the joint, אם רוב הבשר קיים זה וזה מותר, right, both will be mutter. 42:33 ואם לאו אבר אסור ובהמה מותרת. But if not, but if not, ultimately again the eiver, the limb, will be assur, rabosai, bepshitus out like eiver min hachai, right, going back to our previous sugya, dangling limb, so it might be again, it might be eiver min hachai, we'll have to see exactly 42:50 what. And the beheima ultimately again is mutter. 42:53 Shmuel says on the other hand, בין למעלה בין למטה. 42:56 Shmuel says whether the breakage took place above the joint, below the joint, doesn't matter. 43:01 אם רוב הבשר קיים זה וזה מותר. If the majority of the flesh ultimately again is intact, both will be mutter. 43:09 Both rabosai means again, the limb as well as the animal. 43:12 V'im lav, and if not, ultimately again אבר אסור ובהמה מותרת. 43:17 But if not, if not again if the majority of the flesh is not intact, then halacha l'maiseh the limb will be assur, but ultimately again the beheima, the animal, will be mutter. 43:28 Okay rabosai, we'll stop over here today. 43:30 Yasher koach. Great run. I know we went quickly, but im yirtzeh Hashem we'll go ahead and we'll get im yirtzeh Hashem some of the halacha l'maiseh tomorrow ben pakua, as well as on etsem, tsomet hagidin rabosai, tremendous yasher koach. 43:41 Have a great day everyone.
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