Transcript Translit עברית
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0:09 Good morning, good morning. 0:12 Today's daf is Chullin daf pe. 0:14 We begin by thanking all of our sponsors. 0:16 We thank all these sponsors of all the Talmud Torah for the month of Av. 0:20 We thank Mel and Karen Ram who sponsored all the shiurim, all the drashot for the month of Menachem Av as a zechut for refuah sheleimah for Eliezer ben Elisheva. 0:28 We also thank Ed and Iris Miller and Adam and Dr. 0:32 Leslie Rosen for sponsoring all the shiurim and all the drashas of the month of Menachem Av l'ilui nishmat Dr. 0:38 Joseph Miller, חיים יוסף בן ראובן. We also thank all the friends of ירחמיאל מאיר בן פרל who sponsored מאיר בן פרל לאה, we sponsored all the shiurim and all the drashot of the month as a zechut for a refuah sheleimah for ירחמיאל מאיר בן פרל לאה. 0:52 We also thank Yossi and Malka Kohn for sponsoring all the shiurim and all the drashot of the month of Menachem Av in memory of Rabbi Doctor Menachem Schorr, Rabbi מנחם בן חיים יהושע הלוי who loved Camp Yedidim and SOTC. 1:07 We also thank our sponsors of the week. 1:09 We thank Ari Brownstein for sponsoring all the shiurim of the week as a thank you to the Rav and the Rebbetzin for patronizing their business Blue Kangaroo Packout. 1:18 We also thank the sponsor for today's Daf Yomi shiur Eyal and Sarah Steinberg for sponsoring the shiur as a zechut for continued health for שלומית חנה בת סשה and for an ultimate refuah sheleimah. 1:33 Again, today's daf is Chullin daf pe, eighty in Masechet Chullin. 1:37 We are mamash in the middle of a sentence. 1:40 We had to stop yesterday. 1:42 The Gemara is talking about when we have a crossbreed of an animal where the halacha of one of the animals demands one thing and the halacha of another one of the animals demands something else. 1:54 In this particular case, we're talking about a crossbreed between a tayish which is a goat and a tzvi which is a deer and we're not exactly sure which one is the father, which one is the mother. 2:04 We're going to go back and forth on this, but there are a number of nafka minas l'halacha. 2:08 One of them we discussed yesterday was the halacha of shechting it on Yom Tov. 2:12 As we know, the halacha is a chaya needs to have kisuy hadam. 2:18 So when you shecht a chaya, an undomesticated animal, the halacha is after you shecht it you need to cover its blood from the shechita with some dirt. 2:26 Not so with a behemah. 2:27 This is a nafka mina on Yom Tov because on Yom Tov the dirt is potentially muktzah and there's a machloket between Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel, not going to get into that again, but ultimately the Mishnah says we quoted this yesterday where it says תנן כוי אין שוחטין אותו ביום טוב ואם שחטו אין מכסין את דמו 2:44 and we had a b'mai askinan, but ultimately we had a discussion yesterday about whether or not you're allowed to shecht this crossbreed animal called a koy on Yom Tov. 2:56 We had another nafka mina which was relevant to the zero'a, lechayayim, and the keivah, whether or not these gifts are given to a kohen. 3:05 So again, depending on how you learn this is how you're going to determine the halacha. 3:31 And ultimately, if a kohen would like to demand his share of this animal, he's going to have to do something to prove that he is correct. 3:40 Now what we said yesterday that we have a machloket between the Rabbanan and Rabbi Eliezer. 3:45 Interestingly, they agree on one thing. 3:47 They agree on the fact that they don't know. 3:50 What don't they know? 3:51 So this gets back to two other points that we mentioned yesterday which needs clarification for today, which is there's a concept called chosheshin l'zera ha-av. 4:00 That means that we have a father-child relationship even when it comes to animals. 4:07 Where yesterday we cited the opinion of Hananya and the Rabbanan and they talked about the mitzvah or the issur of oto v'et beno, is that relevant as well to a father and a child as much as it is to the mother and 4:22 the child? And we said that the subject of that machloket is the concept of chosheshin l'zera ha-av. 4:29 Do we create lineage by animals between the father and the child? 4:33 The bottom line is when it comes to the machloket between Rabbi Eliezer and the Rabbanan that we're going to be talking about today, they both don't know. 4:39 They both say there is a safek. 4:40 They both say we cannot prove one way or another as to whether or not there is a connection from father to child. 4:49 They agree that they don't know. 4:51 So why are they arguing? 4:52 With regard to what are they arguing about all these halachos? 4:55 The answer is they are arguing about the concept of another drasha called שה ואפילו מקצת שה, which means when a pasuk... 5:03 tells you that there is a halacha that's relevant to a seh and a seh can be seh izim or kvasim, ksavim, ksavim, the halacha is that the pasuk says seh. 5:14 Does that mean that the product has to also be a full-fledged one hundred percent DNA seh? 5:21 Or is it possible that if you have a child that has mixed DNA of seh and something else as well that we'll still say the halacha's relevant to this child because שה ואפילו מקצת שה? 5:33 Everybody agrees that when you have a breed between two different kinds of animals that the product of that relationship is going to produce something that has some elements of one and other elements of the other. 5:48 So when the pasuk says there's a halacha, for example, oto v'et beno or kisuy hadam or matnot kehuna, which require to be a seh, what happens if the child, the product of this crossbreed over here, is going to be something that has miktzat seh? 6:06 Is that considered to be a seh or not? 6:08 So that's what takes us back to the top line. 6:10 Let's just read this. 6:13 שה ואפילו מקצת שה. The first word on the line, that's the machlokes. Rabbanan savri שה ואפילו מקצת שה. 6:22 If you have an animal that is partially a seh, in other words, even if you're going to take away the discussion of choshshin lezera ha'av or אין חוששין לזרע האב, do we create lineage between father and child? 6:35 Take that off the table. 6:37 Nevertheless, there's a product, an animal over here that was produced through a mating between a seh and let's just call it something else which in this case was a deer. 6:48 Do we say that the child is still considered to be a seh because it's miktzat seh? Rabbanan savri שה ואפילו מקצת שה. 6:56 Rabbi Eliezer he argues and he says savar seh. 6:58 When the pasuk tells you that there's a halacha that's relevant to a seh, so a sheep or a goat, v'lo miktzat seh. 7:06 It has to be a one hundred percent seh. 7:08 If it's not going to be a one hundred percent seh, then the halacha's not relevant. 7:11 Amar Rav Pappa, now Rav Pappa's going to try to apply these halachos l'ma'aseh to teach us how it's relevant. 7:21 Hilkach, therefore, לעניין כיסוי הדם ומתנות and the gifts given to the kohen, where the male in this case was the chaya, which was the deer, haba al teyasha. 7:43 דבין רבנן ובין רבי אליעזר, whether you pasken like Rabbi Eliezer or like the Rabbanan, in this case the father's going to be the chaya, the father's going to be the deer, and therefore, let's just say we're not sure if we're going to create lineage 7:57 between father and child, let's take that off the table, but ספקא להו אי חוששין לזרע האב או לא. 8:04 They're not sure, they're not sure that we're going to create this lineage between the father and the child or no, maybe not. 8:12 וקמיפלגי בשה ואפילו מקצת שה. Even if you're going to say that we don't follow the father's lineage to call this child the son of a deer, the bottom line is this child has some parts of it that are deer, some parts of it that 8:31 are goat. וקמיפלגי בשה ואפילו מקצת שה לעניין אותו ואת בנו. They're arguing that case with regard to שה ואפילו מקצת שה. 8:42 So now all those halachos we mentioned yesterday will plug in perfectly and Rashi goes through this if you want a quick, let's quickly just read Rashi. 8:51 Rashi, it's the first skinny line. 8:53 לא משכחת לה בצבי הבא על תיישה והא דתני אין שוחטין that it says that you cannot shecht this koy on Yom Tov, Rabbanan hi. 9:03 That is the opinion of Rabbanan. 9:06 U'mishum, why? Shema choshshin, we're worried maybe this child is the son of a deer, chaya b'kisuyo. 9:16 Because it's the son of a deer, or the child of, product of a deer, it has to have kisuy hadam because its father is a chaya. 9:23 דאית להו צבי ואפילו מקצת צבי. He holds of this concept that if you have a child which has some of the father's DNA in it, even though it's not one hundred percent the father's DNA, nevertheless it's partially the father. 9:36 V'shema ein choshshin, maybe we do not connect it to the father, patur m'kisuy and then you don't have to do kisuy hadam and then you can't do kisuy hadam because it's Yom Tov, דאפילו מקצת צבי ליכא, because there is no part of it which is a goat. 9:51 D'vetayash, and Rashi explains why it can't be the other way around. 9:55 D'vetayash, if the male was a goat, haba al tzviya, ליכא לקמיה דאית תיקו. 10:01 it won't—there's no way to make it fit with the Rabbanan. 10:05 דהוה דאיכא מקצת צבי because if the mother is going to be a deer, everyone's going to agree that it's going to have an element of it which is a deer, u-likh-su-ei de-Rabbanan, and you'd have to cover the blood. 10:16 Now ולרבי אליעזר ודאי הוי מצי לאוקמי בתייש שבא על צביה, Rabbi Eliezer, you could definitely make it work in the case where the male was the haya and was the—the male was the goat and the female was was a deer, the haya, ve-shema chosheshin, again, maybe it maybe we worry about this 10:35 father-child relationship, ולכא אלא מקצת צבי ומקצת לשלי. Now he says we don't follow this idea of miktzat tsvi, ve-shema ein chosheshin le-zera ha-av, in other words, maybe there's no connection between the father and the child, ve-khulei tsvi, the whole thing's going to be a deer because of its mother, ve-ba kisuy, and the 10:53 blood has to be covered. 10:54 In other words, אבו ניחא לאוקמי כרבנן, Rashi explains why we want to make it fit with de-Rabbanan, and then he goes through the matanos. 11:00 But again, we see how it works out when how it works out according to the Rabbanan when the father was the—was the deer and the mother was the goat. 11:11 Now let's get to the next case. 11:12 Le-ninoso ve-et beno, when we're talking about the issur, the prohibition of shechting a parent and child in the same day, mashkhachas la, what will the case be talking about? 11:22 בין בתייש שבא על צביה, whether the male was the goat and the female was the deer, ובין בצבי הבא על תיישה, and whether and whether the male was the deer and the female was the goat. 11:40 And he explains: בתייש שבא על צביה, if we're talking about a case where the male was the goat and the female was the deer, u-le-issura, with regard to the issur of shechting it, so de-Rabbanan savri, the Rabbanan are of the opinion—remember the Rabbanan say 11:54 we're not sure about the father-child relationship, but we do say that there's afilu miktzat, so they are of the opinion דילמא חוששין לזרע האב, like we said, we're not sure, maybe we worry about this father-child relationship, and they say ve-afilu miktzat seh. 12:12 Even if something is partially a seh, it has the halacha of a seh. 12:17 ואפילו מקצת שה אמרינן and therefore ve-assur. 12:21 So again, this is the case where the father was a goat and the mother was a deer. 12:31 So now, when it comes to a deer, there's no—nothing wrong with oto ve-et beno, in other words, there's no prohibition of oto ve-et beno. 12:43 But when it comes to the goat, there is a prohibition of oto ve-et beno. 12:47 So now you have a father who is a seh, seh izim. 12:51 Now, with regard to the relationship between the father and the child, we don't know that that actually exists. 12:57 But we do have a drasha which says שה אפילו מקצת שה. 13:01 So therefore, this child will be subject oto ve-et beno according to the Chachamim, you're not going to be allowed to shecht it. 13:06 Rabbi Eliezer savar, Eliezer, this—he disagrees, and he says it's true, נהי נמי דחוששין לזרע האב, that we're worried maybe that there's a father and child relationship. 13:18 However, שה ואפילו מקצת שה לא אמרינן. We don't say that if a child has a partial DNA of a seh that we consider it to be a seh. 13:28 And that will lead to his opinion. 13:29 Now, בצבי הבא על תיישה, the other way around, what if the father was a deer and the mother was the goat? 13:34 So u-le-malkus, what's the machlokes related to? 13:37 It's only related to whether or not there's going to be lashes. 13:40 Now—in other words, everyone agrees that there's a problem over here, but the question is whether there's going to be actual lashes. 13:48 Rabbanan savri, according to the Rabbanan, they are of the opinion, they say נהי נמי דחוששין לזרע האב, it's true that we are worried maybe that there is a—that there's a father-child relationship over here. 14:01 And here the father was a goat and that's subject to oto ve-et beno. 14:08 שה אפילו מקצת שה אמרינן, we do say that when there's some element of DNA of the—of a seh, it passes down to the child, and even though the child only has partial DNA of a seh, u-malkinan leh, you'll give the guy malkus. 14:23 In other words, over here it's talking about a case where the—the father is a—is a deer, mother is a goat. 14:31 So now, maybe there's a relationship between the father and the child, so there's no problem oto ve-et beno, but there still is an issue of שה אפילו מקצת שה. 14:41 So he'll get malkus, will be assur and there's malkus. Rabbi Eliezer savar, Rabbi Eliezer is of the opinion, he says issura ika. 14:46 Everybody agrees when the mother's a goat and the father's a deer, you can't—oto ve-et beno is going to be relevant. 14:53 However, malkus leka, there is no malkus. Issura ika, as we just said. 14:59 And he explains: דילמא אין חוששין לזרע האב, maybe we don't have maybe we don't have any connection between the father and the child and therefore the fact that the father was a deer is completely irrelevant. 15:07 This is the child of a seh, והיה שה מעליא הוא, it's a real seh. 15:12 However we don't give malkus, malkus leka, דילמא חוששין לזרע אב, maybe we do actually have a connection between the father and the child and therefore this child is a partial seh, partial deer, partial tzvi and therefore there's not going to be any problem of oso ve-es beno. 15:30 And he's of the opinion שה אפילו מקצת שה לא אמרינן, he says that we don't say this idea when a child's a partial seh it has the halacha of a seh. 15:38 So this is how it all comes out, in other words Rav Pappa just wanted to explain how it's going to manifest itself in real life. 15:43 But again the bottom line is according to the Rabbanan and according to Rabbi Eliezer, we don't have a definitive psak with regard to the relationship of father to child, we have a machlokes when the posuk says something needs to be 15:58 a seh to be subject to certain halachos. 16:01 What happens if the child only is a miktzas seh? 16:04 Because part of its gene pool comes from another parent which is not in the category of seh. 16:09 Do we say that it's still considered to be a seh because it has miktzas seh? 16:13 Or do we say no, this is not a seh, a seh is only a seh if it's completely a seh. 16:17 If it's not totally a seh then it's not going to be relevant. 16:20 Rabbi Eliezer says no we don't say miktzas seh, the Chachamim say yes we do say miktzas seh and the Gemara just went through a number of cases to explain how it's going to manifest itself le-halacha. Amar Rav Yehuda. 16:32 Gemara continues with its discussion of this koy, but in a little bit of a different context. 16:37 Amar Rav Yehuda, koy, beria bifnei atzma. Up until now we understood that this koy, and as I said yesterday some people pronounce it a kvi, the bottom line is let's just call it a koy here this morning. 16:48 A koy says the Gemara, says Rav Yehuda is a beria bifnei atzma. 16:53 Up until now we understood that this koy was the product of a deer and a goat. 16:58 So when a deer and a goat mate, they have a child called a koy. 17:02 Rav Yehuda is of the opinion that that relationship's not going to produce a child anyway and therefore a koy is a beria bifnei atzma, it's just an animal, it's an animal HaKadosh Baruch Hu created. 17:15 However he explains: ולא הכריעו בו חכמים אם מין בהמה היא או מין חיה. 17:21 Sometimes surprisingly there is a psak halacha that we give that we don't know. 17:27 In other words the halacha is we don't know. 17:29 In other words Chazal looked at this animal called a koy and they tried to study the animals as well as they possibly could, they could not determine whether this animal was in the category of a chaya, an undomesticated animal or 17:39 behema, domesticated animal, and therefore they left it as a safek. 17:43 It's a safek chaya, safek behema. In other words it's not as much up until now we understood it was the product of this relationship of two different types, a chaya and a behema being bred together. 17:56 Says Rav Yehuda no, it's a beria bifnei atzma, it's its own creation, ולא הכריעו בו חכמים אם מין בהמה אם מין חיה. 18:02 The Chachamim were not able to decide whether it's a chaya or behema. Rav Nachman amar, Rav Nachman disagrees and he says koy, what is this? 18:12 Zeh ayil ha-bar, it's a wild ram. 18:16 Says the Gemara, this is ultimately subject to another machlokes tanna'im. Ke-tanna'im, as we learned in a braisa. Koy, zeh ayil ha-bar, this koy is a wild ram. 18:26 Ve-yesh omrim, some say that it's not a wild ram, זה הבא מן התיש ומן הצביה, it's an animal that's produced when a tayish, a goat, and a tzviya, a female deer, have a relationship, they produce something called a koy. 18:39 That's how we've been learning it up until now since yesterday. 18:41 Rabbi Yose omer, Rabbi Yose disagrees and he says koy beria bifnei atzma. 18:46 It's not a wild ram, it's not the product of a goat and a deer, rather koy is a beria bifnei atzma, it's its own creation by HaKadosh Baruch Hu. 18:55 However, בריה בפני עצמה היא ולא הכריעו בו חכמים אם ממין חיה אם ממין בהמה. Chachamim were not able to decide whether this animal, this koy, was a chaya or a behema. 19:07 רבן שמעון בן גמליאל אומר, Shimon ben Gamliel says min behema hi, it's actually, everybody knows a koy is a min behema, it's a domesticated animal. 19:16 If you want to go check it out, ve-shel beis dushai, if you want to go visit the Dushai family you'll see היו מגדלין מהן עדרים עדרים. 19:24 They have flocks and flocks of these koy growing in their domesticated farm and therefore clearly a koy is a domesticated animal. 19:33 It's ultimately a big machlokes what this koy is, how do you get a koy, where do you find a koy, what does it look like, what is its halachic status, a number of opinions. 19:43 אמר רב זירא אמר רב ספרא אמר רב המנונא, Rav Zeira said in the name of Rav Safra in the name of Rav Hamnuna, hani izei de-vala, these wild goats, kesheros legabei mizbei'ach. 19:55 They are kosher for the mizbei'ach, obviously because they are behema not a chaya. Savar lah, he's of the opinion... 20:04 He follows what Rav Yitzchak says, which is עשר בהמות מנה הכתוב, the Torah counts ten different types of animals. 20:13 So just to understand what this is, there's a pasuk that says זאת הבהמה אשר תאכלו, these are the animals that you're allowed to eat. 20:22 And then it says Shor, Se Kesovim, v'Se Izim. 20:27 So those are three. 20:28 You have a Shor, cow or an ox, Se Kesovim, sheep, v'Se Izim, goat. 20:33 And then it goes on and says Ayal, Tzvi, v'Yachmor, v'Ako, v'Dishon, u-Se'o, v'Zomer. 20:42 So you have seven more to get a total of ten. 20:46 Now the first three, the Shor, the Se Kesovim, and the Se Izim are all beheimos. 20:54 We understand that the remaining seven of them are all chayous. 20:59 So here's a list of animals that you're allowed to eat, and among them are three of them being a beheima, seven of them being a chaya, non-domesticated animal. 21:08 Of the ones that are chayous, we have an Ayal, I'm not translating them intentionally, an Ayal, a Tzvi, a Yachmor, Ako, v'Dishon, u-Se'o, v'Zomer. 21:22 That's what they are. 21:23 That's what the pasuk says. 21:24 So now the Gemara goes on. 21:27 עשר בהמות מנה הכתוב. The pasuk counted ten different kinds of animals, v'sulo, and no more of them. 21:36 Now you didn't notice anywhere in that pasuk where it says anything about this Izei deBala. 21:42 The pasuk did not count anything called Izei deBala. 21:46 So that being the case, הני מדלא חשיב להו בהדי חיות, from the fact that the Torah did not count these Izei deBala among the list of the chayous, among those seven chayous, shema mina d'izneihu, it must be the reason why it wasn't counted is just because it's a regular 22:04 ez. The reason why it was not counted is because it's a regular goat, and the pasuk says Se Izim. 22:13 So if it's a Se Izim, it's counted as Se Izim and it's just a beheima. 22:18 In other words, that's the way Rav Yitzchak understands this, that these Izei deBala, these wild goats, even though they may present themselves looking like some kind of chaya, at the end of the day they're in the goat family and since they're in 22:35 the goat family they are beheimos kosher to bring on the mizbei'ach. 22:39 Because if they would have been a chaya, they would have been listed among the chayous in the pasuk. 22:48 Rav Acha bar Yaakov says, hold on a second. 22:51 V'eima, you're right that they weren't individually listed over here, but let's think about this for a second. 22:56 We know the rule of what makes an animal a kosher animal: split hooves and chews its cud, it's a kosher animal. 23:02 Then we have a whole list of all these things. 23:05 These Izei deBala, these wild goats, they have this siman of a kosher animal so they're kosher. 23:10 The question just is: are they a chaya or are they a beheima? 23:12 Let's look at this pasuk and try to understand it. 23:15 V'eima Ayal u-Tzvi, when the pasuk goes ahead and gives this whole list of chayous over here, that's a prat, those are specific kinds of animals. 23:23 But then the pasuk goes on and says Kol Beheima. 23:28 The pasuk is talking about it: כל בהמה מפרסת פרסה ושסעת שסע שתי פרסות מעלת גרה בבהמה אותה תאכלו. 23:36 That pasuk is what gives us the rule about the split hooves and the chewing of its cud. 23:41 So now you have specific animals that are counted as kosher animals and then you have the rule afterwards. 23:46 So what is this? 23:47 This is a prat u-khlal. 23:49 First a specification and then a generalization. 23:53 What's the rule when you have a specification and then a generalization? 23:56 The Gemara explains: Ayal Tzvi prat, you have the specification, Kol Beheimos klal, that's the generalization. 24:02 So what are you left with? 24:04 Prat u-khlal, specification followed by generalization. 24:07 And what does that mean? 24:08 נעשה כלל מוסיף על הפרט. The generalization is adding onto those specific examples and it's essentially telling you that anything that fits this category, which has split hooves and chews its cud, is going to be added to that previous category. 24:23 In other words, the fact that you have seven chayous listed in the pasuk doesn't mean only those seven are chayous. 24:31 Those are specifications, but it's followed by a klal, by a general rule. 24:35 If the general rule follows it, it goes back and says seven plus anything that fits into this category. 24:41 So maybe this Ayal, sorry, this Izei deBala, these wild goats, fit into the category of a chaya and are going to be, yes, kosher but in the category of a chaya and then ultimately subject to kisuy hadam, not kosher to bring onto 24:53 the mizbei'ach, and everything that follows with that. 25:00 The Gemara says im kein, if that's the case, that this is a prat... 25:05 Sometimes you could say a prat u-klal when you have maybe one or two examples. 25:08 When the pasuk gives you seven specific examples of animals, you're not going to say that this is a prat u-klal because seven is a bit much. 25:18 If you want to just give a general rule, give one, two, three. 25:22 Seven? If you gave seven of them, that means it's those seven and nothing else. 25:26 מסקף ליה רב אחא בריה דרב איקא. רב אחא בריה דרב איקא asked a question on this. 25:34 דילמא מיני דאקו נינהו. How do you know that these, this izzei de-bala, these wild goats, are not an ako? 25:44 In other words, if I would have asked you a few minutes ago, okay let's just translate all these words over here, ayal, that's a ram. 25:51 Tzvi, a deer. Yachmor, anybody know what that is? 25:54 Ako, know what that is? 25:56 Went to a zoo recently and saw a dishon walking around. 25:59 Do I know what a theo is? 26:01 Maybe a zemer? Well, they have translations, but maybe these izzei de-bala, these wild goats, are an ako because you don't know what an ako is. 26:11 Now it's, it's actually interesting, there's this individual by the name of Rabbi Pinchas Presworsky. 26:17 I don't know who he is, but every now and then he calls me and he offers me his sefarim, he has some wonderful sefarim written on the animals of the Torah and other, he makes other visuals. 26:28 Now I did buy his sefarim once and he actually goes through each one of these animals and when he gets to this, ayal he calls a red deer, tzvi is a roe deer, yachmor is a, I think it's pronounced oryx, 26:47 ako, what's an ako? 26:48 It's an ibex. An ibex. 26:50 This is what it looks like. 26:52 Could be a wild deer, a wild goat, an ibex, and yes, I looked it up last night and ibex definitely is in the goat family. 26:59 Okay, so the Gemara is asking, we have these wild goats, you're so sure that they're not listed in the pasuk? 27:06 Maybe a wild goat actually is an ako? 27:10 So why are you so sure, oh, this wild goat is not listed in that pasuk? 27:15 And maybe it's an ibex. 27:17 Maybe it is the ako that the pasuk was talking about. 27:20 So that's his question. 27:21 מסקף ליה רב אחא בריה דרב איקא, דילמא מיני דאקו נינהו. Maybe that's exactly what the ako is because if you don't know what an ako is, maybe that's what it is. 27:39 אמר ליה רב אחא בריה דרבא לרב אשי. Rav Acha the son of Rava said to Rav Ashi, ואימא לה רב אחא בריה דאביא לרב אשי, maybe it was someone else, maybe it was רב אחא בריה דאביא who said it to Rav Ashi, dilma, now that you're getting into that, I'm actually myself going through this list, says one of these people 27:56 to Rav Ashi, דילמא מיני דתאו ומיני דזמר. I don't know what a theo is or a zemer. 28:02 Now if you want to know le-ma'aseh what it is, a theo is a European buffalo. 28:10 Okay, that's what it looks like. 28:12 And if you want to know what a zemer is, it's a giraffe. 28:16 Okay so now I don't know that a giraffe and a wild goat get mixed up, but maybe, maybe רב אחא בריה דרבא, or maybe רב אחא בריה דאביא had never seen a giraffe, maybe they didn't know what a giraffe was, maybe they weren't zocheh to get 28:35 this sefer from Rabbi Pinchas Presworsky, so they didn't know what it was, but ultimately the bottom line is they didn't know what an ako was, what a theo was, what a zemer was. 28:44 The bottom line is, it's possible they didn't know. 28:48 אמר ליה רב חנא לרב אשי, Amemar shari tarvaihu. Amemar, he permitted you to eat the chelev of this, of this, of these wild goats. 29:04 Now what does that mean? 29:06 It's a chayah because the halacha is, we know that there's chelev of a behemah is forbidden fats of a behemah, but chelev chayah is permissible. 29:15 So now he clearly was very sure about the nature of these wild goats. 29:19 He called them a chayah, maybe actually they were an ako, and he allowed you to eat their chelev because he was quite confident that they were a chayah. 29:28 Okay, ba'ei minei אבא בריה דרב בנימין בר חייא מרב הונא בר חייא, הני עיזי דבאלא מה לגבי מזבח. So what's the halacha? 29:36 Can you bring these wild goats onto the mizbe'ach? Amar lei עד כאן לא פליגי רבי יוסי ורבנן אלא בשור הבר. 29:40 There's a machlokes between Rabbi Yose and the Rabbanan, they're arguing about a shor ha-bar. De-tnan, where was that relevant? 29:51 De-tnan we learned שור הבר מין בהמה הוא, it is definitely a behemah not a chayah. Rabbi Yose omer, no it's not true, min chayah. 30:01 It's a wild animal therefore it can't go on the mizbeiach. 30:03 Now Derabbanan savri, Derabbanan are of the opinion that we consider it to be a beheima because midemittargeminan torbala, since the translation of the word is a torbala, it's a shor halvanon says Rashi, it must be that it is a domesticated animal. 30:21 Rebbi Yose savar אם דחשיב ליה בהדי חיות mi-min de-chayos, since it was listed among the list of the chayos, it must be it's a wild animal. 30:29 Aval hanei, divrei hakol, mi-min d'izeinu and when we're talking about the wild goats, everybody agrees it is a regular goat and it's a beheima, can go on the mizbeiach. 30:37 מתקיף לה רב אחא בריה דרב איקא, the same question we asked before. 30:40 How do you know that it's not listed over there? 30:44 דילמא מימין דאקו נינהו? Maybe it's like the same question we asked before, maybe it's this akku. 30:48 אמר ליה רבינא לרב אשי דילמא מימין דתאו, maybe it is a ta'o, again here we have the translates as European buffalo, או מימין דזמר, maybe it's some type of giraffe, מימין דזמר נינהו. אמר ליה רב נחמן לרב אשי, Ameimar shari travaihu, Ameimar permitted you to eat the fat of this animal, clearly he was of the opinion that it was 31:06 a chaya. Okay, now we get back to the mishna which talked about oso ve'es b'no. 31:11 If you remember the mishna, the mishna gave a number of different scenarios of how you can have two potential problems going on at the same time. 31:19 So you can have an animal which has let's just say shchutei chutz, an animal which is a karban which is slaughtered outside the domain where it's supposed to be, and it's also the child of an animal that you slaughtered today. 31:31 So the mishna goes through a number of different scenarios, we're not going to go through all of those right now, just a few of them. 31:36 Keitzad ha-shocheit? Now amar Rav Oshiya, Rav Oshiya says, kula masnisin our entire mishna delo k'Rebbi Shimon it does not follow the opinion of Rebbi Shimon. 31:45 What's Rebbi Shimon's opinion? Mimai? 31:48 From where and how do I know this? 31:50 מדיקתני קדשים בחוץ הראשון חייב כרת ושניהם פסולים ושניהם סופגן את הארבעים. Let's go through this case. 31:58 Kadashim bachutz, two animals which are a karban and you slaughter them outside the Beis Hamikdash where they're supposed to be. 32:05 Now ha-rishon chayiv kares, the first karban that you slaughter outside the Beis Hamikdash you're chayiv kares for slaughtering it there. 32:11 Why? It's a karban you slaughtered outside the Beis Hamikdash. Ve-shneihem psulim, the second one who is the child of the original karban is going to be disqualified as well, ושניהם סופגן את הארבעים, you get malkus for both of them. 32:25 So you take two animals mother and child, they're both designated as karbanos you slaughtered both of them outside, the first one the person gets malkus and kares for because he slaughtered an animal outside, shchutei chutz, and the second one there's an 32:41 oso ve'es b'no issue as well, it's a child of the previous karban, so there's malkus, so there's two sets of malkus in this case. 32:50 Michti, says the Gemara, שמעינן ליה לרבי שמעון, we see that Rebbi Shimon's of the opinion דאמר שחיטה שאינה ראויה לא שמה שחיטה. 33:00 Rebbi Shimon's of the opinion that the only thing that can actually be referred to as a halakhic shchita is a shchita which would permit you to eat the meat. 33:11 It has to be a shchita ha-re'uya la-achila. 33:14 This shchita must accomplish the basic feature of a shchita which is that after you shecht it now you're allowed to eat it. 33:22 Rebbi Shimon says anytime you do a shchita, even if it follows all the protocols of shchita, but if for some other reason the animal's not permissible to be eaten after that shchita, the shchita does not have a halakhic definition of shchita. 33:37 That's his opinion. So now says the Gemara top of דף פ עמוד ב, kama mital katlei, the first one you're right that you slaughtered it but that shchita does not accomplish permission to eat the animal. 33:51 It was kadashim bachutz, it's a karban slaughtered outside. 33:54 So yes you slaughtered it and yes it looks like a shchita but according to Rebbi Shimon that isn't a shchita, that's just killing the animal. 34:02 So now if I kill the animal, remember the pasuk says oso ve'es b'no לא תשחטו ביום אחד. 34:10 Oso ve'es b'no is only a problem if both of them have a shchita. 34:15 If I shoot the first one, there's no problem to slaughter the second one. 34:19 Says the Gemara according to Rebbi Shimon, you're right that you went through the motions of a shchita and slaughtered it outside but the halakhic definition of what happened over there is not shchita. 34:30 So therefore kama mital katlei, the first one was killed. 34:35 Sheni misgabel bifnim. Now the second one ultimately can be misgabel bifnim, it's a good karban. 34:44 מסקבלי בפנים הוא וכרת נמי לחייב, you should be chayiv kares for doing the second one outside. 34:49 In other words the only reason why there's no kares on the second one is because of the first one. 34:55 And if the first one was killed, not slaughtered, this one should be מסקבלי בפנים וכרת נמי לחייב. 35:00 Next case, what if you have two animals that are chullin? 35:03 Where are they supposed to be shechted? 35:05 Outside the Beis Hamikdash. Chulin bifnim. You have two animals that are not kodshim, they're chulin, they're regular mundane animals. 35:13 And what do you do? 35:14 You shecht them inside. 35:15 Shnayim psulim, both of them are disqualified. 35:18 והשני סופג את הארבעים, Mishna says the second one you get malkus for. 35:21 Michtila, let's analyze this. 35:22 שמעינן ליה לרבי שמעון דאמר שחיטה שאינה ראויה לא שמה שחיטה. Rabbi Shimon's of the opinion that anytime you have a shechita which is not qualified as a shechita, it doesn't accomplish that the meat is going to be permissible to be eaten, is not called a shechita. 35:33 So kama, the first animal which is a regular animal for your barbecue that you brought into the Beis Hamikdash, you shechted it there. 35:42 That's not a shechita, you're not allowed to shecht inside the Beis Hamikdash. 35:47 How do we view that? 35:48 Kama matal katla. The first one was just killed. 35:50 Therefore שני אמאי סופג את הארבעים? The second one, why would there be malkus for oso ve'es bno? 35:58 Its mother was killed, not shechted. 36:02 Next case. Kodshim bifnim. What happens if you do kodshim bifnim? 36:07 So that's where it's supposed to be. 36:08 You do kodshim inside the Beis Hamikdash. 36:11 So now harishon, the first one's kasher. 36:13 Nothing wrong with the first one. 36:14 The first one is a regular just call it a shlamim. 36:17 It's supposed to be shechted inside the Beis Hamikdash, it was shechted inside the Beis Hamikdash, it checks all its boxes, everything was done properly. 36:24 Upatur, and nothing's wrong there. 36:26 Vehasheni, the second one if you shecht it inside the Beis Hamikdash, soveg es ha'arbaim, person gets malkus for shechting it there. 36:32 Why? Because that's a case of oso ve'es bno. 36:34 You have two korbanos, mother and daughter, both of them are korban shlamim, both of them are shechted inside the Beis Hamikdash. 36:39 The problem is the first one is a perfectly fine korban. 36:44 Everything is good. Because the first one was a perfectly fine korban, that means the second one cannot be shechted inside the Beis Hamikdash or be shechted at all. 36:54 If you do shecht the second one, that is the definition of the prohibition of oso ve'es bno. 36:59 Therefore you get malkus for that. 37:00 Upasul, it's going to be disqualified. 37:02 Now says the Gemara, עד כאן לא שמעי. 37:04 Not so fast according to Rabbi Shimon. 37:05 Michtila, let's analyze this. 37:08 שמעינן ליה לרבי שמעון דאמר שחיטה שאינה ראויה לא שמה שחיטה. A shechita that does not accomplish permission to be able to eat the animal is not called a shechita. 37:24 The shechita of kodshim, you have to understand when it comes to kodshim, you're not done by just shechting the animal. 37:30 It's kind of on hold. 37:31 You do a shechita and then you're in a waiting period to see if that shechita actually permits you to eat the meat. 37:37 Why? דכמה דלא זריק דמא לא משרי בשרא. As long as you don't sprinkle the blood on the mizbeach, the meat is still not permitted to be eaten. 37:45 In other words, unlike an animal that you shecht in your backyard, after the shechita everything becomes permissible. 37:51 There's some side issues of getting the blood out, but ultimately the meat is permissible at that point in time. 37:57 When it comes to a korban, the meat is not permissible until you do the zrikas hadam. 38:02 So according to Rabbi Shimon, it's a שחיטה שאינה ראויה לאכילה. 38:12 So therefore שני אמאי סופג את הארבעים ופסול? The second one, why do you get malkus and why is it disqualified? 38:31 אלא שמע מינה דלא כרבי שמעון. The Mishna does not follow the opinion of Rabbi Shimon. 38:35 According to our Mishna, even if the first shechita does not accomplish permission to allow you to eat the meat, nevertheless it's still going to be considered a shechita with regard to oso ve'es bno and does not follow the opinion of Rabbi Shimon. 38:49 Says the Gemara, pishita d'hachi isa. In other words, shkayach. 38:54 Why'd you have to give me all these examples to show me this? 38:56 Clearly that's the opinion of Rabbi Shimon. 38:58 Rabbi Shimon's of the opinion that the animal has to be ra'ui l'shechita, has to be ra'ui l'achila. 39:05 If it's not ra'ui l'achila, it's not a shechita. 39:07 Why do you have to have a half a amud of Gemara telling us this? 39:10 The Gemara says the truth is we needed to have this, שחיטת קדשים אצטריכא ליה. 39:15 We had to have it for the last case. 39:19 קסלקא דעתך אמינא שחיטת קדשים שחיטה ראויה היא. When you shecht kodshim, it was a very good shechita. 39:24 Everything was perfectly fine there. 39:26 And I'll prove it to you. 39:27 דאי נחר וזריק דם לא משרי. If I would just stab the animal and kill it and then sprinkle the blood, it's not going to be permissible. 39:35 In other words, you need to have two things: shechita and zrikas hadam. 39:39 The shechita is not irrelevant. 39:42 It happens to be it's on hold until the zrika happens. 39:45 Case in point, if I stab the animal and just kill it and then do zrikas hadam, doesn't do anything, doesn't accomplish anything. 39:52 It's not kasher. So the shechita does work. 39:55 And therefore I would think that maybe according to Rabbi Shimon, he would agree that there would be a problem of oso ve'es bno there. 39:59 וכי שחט משרי בשרא. וכי שחט מישתרי בשר ושחיטה ראויה קמשמע לן. So you learn from here that no, actually no, it's not considered a shechita r'uyah even according to Rebbi Shimon you're not going to be chayav. 40:11 Okay, so now we established something very clear. 40:13 The Mishna does not follow the opinion of Rebbi Shimon. 40:18 The Gemara goes a little bit further. 40:19 ולקני נמי משום לאו דמחוסר זמן. Why don't we tack on one more malkus for this guy of the lav of mechusar zman? 40:27 So just so we understand, there's a pasuk that tells us, we'll get to the pasuk soon, that an animal is not born ready to be a korban. 40:37 An animal has to wait eight till its eighth day of its life till it's ready to be a korban. 40:42 If an animal is on the fifth day of its life, it's called mechusar zman. 40:46 If you bring it as a korban, then that is the Gemara wants to say a person should maybe get malkus for that. 40:53 Our case as well, it's not the classic case of mechusar zman. 40:57 It is a subjective case of mechusar zman because when you shecht the mother, by definition you are giving that child a suspension of one day until it is appropriate to be brought as a korban. 41:09 So now that being the case, essentially during that one day that animal is a mechusar zman. 41:15 So the Gemara says maybe whenever you shecht oso v'es beno and there's malkus, you should also get malkus not just because of oso v'es beno, but another issur called bringing a korban that's mechusar zman that is premature. 41:28 Mechusar zman means premature. ולקני נמי משום לאו דמחוסר זמן. 41:32 We should get malkus because of the prematurity. 41:37 Detanya, How do I know when it comes to all the disqualifications of a shor and a seh shehu belo yeratzeh if it falls into the category of lo yeiratzeh, it can't be brought as a korban? Talmud lomar, שור או כשב שרוע וקלוט. 41:54 This is the pasuk that goes through the various different mumim, blemishes, that an animal can have that will make it disqualified. 42:02 לימד על הפסולין שבשור ובכשב שהוא בלא ירצה. This teaches me on any disqualification of any shor or any seh, לימד על הפסולין שבשור ובכשב שהוא בלא ירצה. 42:11 It's all under the category of lo yeiratzeh, they're not qualified to be brought as a korban. 42:18 The Gemara says you're right. 42:20 The truth is this person will get lashes for that. 42:23 The person will get lashes for the violation of oso v'es beno and for the violation of mechusar zman, meaning you brought a korban prematurely. 42:32 However our Mishna didn't bother mentioning it. 42:34 You know why? Because our Mishna is not counting all the lavin. 42:38 That's not our Mishna's job. 42:40 Our Mishna's job is to discuss oso v'es beno. 42:42 So כי קא חשיב לאוי דאותו ואת בנו. When did our Mishna count the malkus that's going to be given? 42:49 לאוי דאותו ואת בנו. Our Mishna is an oso v'es beno Mishna, so it only counts a lav that's going to give malkus for that particular disqualification of oso v'es beno. 43:01 However לאוי נוכראי לא קא חשיב and are not going to be counted here and therefore while it is true that there will be lashes for bringing a korban prematurely, it's not listed in our Mishna. 43:14 Says the Gemara, really? 43:15 ולו והא קתני שחוטי חוץ? Don't you remember we listed a case before, a person shechts a korban outside the Beis Hamikdash? 43:21 דלאוי נוכראי נינהו וקא חשיב. That has nothing to do with oso v'es beno. 43:26 That's something from halachos of kodashim. V'ka chashev, it still was counted in our Mishna. Dekatani, and in case you forgot, we'll remind you. 43:35 Dekatani, it says in the Mishna, dekatani shechutei chutz. 43:37 If a person brings shechutei chutz, two animals, mother and child outside the Beis Hamikdash. Harishon chayav kareis. 43:44 The first one is chayav kareis for shechutei chutz, you bring the korban outside the Beis Hamikdash. 43:50 ושניהם סופגים את הארבעים for both animals they'll get malkus, one for shechutei chutz, one for oso v'es beno. 43:58 So I'm sorry, how could you tell me that our Mishna only counts a lav of oso v'es beno? 44:03 I just showed you black on white how our Mishna counted a lav with malkus for shechutei chutz. Gemara says בשלמא שני משום לאו דאותו ואת בנו אלא ראשון אמאי סופג. 44:18 The Gemara's just explaining what we just said. 44:20 אלא ראשון אמאי סופג. The first one, why is he getting malkus? 44:25 לאו משום לאו דשחוטי חוץ? Isn't it because of the prohibition of shechting an animal, a korban, outside the Beis Hamikdash? Gemara says you're right. 44:31 כל היכא דליכא לאו דאותו ואת בנו חשיב לאוי נוכראי. If our Mishna has a case where there is no lav of oso v'es beno, for example that case was mother, daughter, both of them korbanos shechted outside the Beis Hamikdash. 44:49 When mother is shechted outside, the only problem with that mother is shechutei chutz, because at that point in time it's just a korban being shechted outside. 44:58 So what do you have? 44:59 A problem, a prohibition of shechting an animal, a korban, outside the Beis Hamikdash. 45:13 When it comes to the baby, what's left? 45:16 You have the lav of oso ve'es bino. 45:19 Once we mention oso ve'es bino, we're only going to be talking about oso ve'es bino and nothing else. 45:26 Says the Gemara: כל היכא דאיכא לאו דאותו ואת בנו לא חשיב לאוין אחריני. 45:30 Is it true that every time that we have an issur of oso ve'es bino, we don't count any of the other lavin? 45:39 Hold on, no, no, that's just: כל היכא דאיכא לאו דאותו ואת בנו לא חשיב לאוין אחריני. 45:44 It's not a question, it's a statement. 45:46 Anytime that we have a lav of oso ve'es bino, for example the child, we're only going to mention the lav of oso ve'es bino and no other ones. 45:57 Let's go a little bit further. 45:58 Zeira amar, Zeira says: hanach lemechussar zman. We're not going to count mechussar zman in the first place. 46:04 Why? Dehakasuv nitko la'asei. דף פא עמוד ב. The reason why there's no malkos for shechting a korban prematurely is because shechting a korban prematurely, while it is true that it's a lav, it is one of these types of lavin that the way the Torah writes 46:24 it is, it includes an asei. 46:26 And there's a rule which is: כל לאו הניתק לעשה. 46:29 Any lav which is connected to an asei, it's considered an asei and not a lav. 46:34 We know that there's no malkos, no lashes, when a person violates an asei. 46:37 So therefore in this case it's nitak la'asei. 46:40 He explains: מאי טעמא דאמר קרא. Pasuk says, which again this is the reason why I wanted to do this piece of the Gemara is because the whole source of mechussar zman comes from this pasuk, so we can't leave it for tomorrow. 46:50 De'amar kra, the pasuk says: מיום השמיני והלאה ירצה. 46:55 From the eighth day on it shall be brought as a korban, it can't be brought as a korban. 47:00 So you see it says that until eight days it can't be brought as a korban, which is the lav. 47:06 But there's an asei, a corrective action so to speak, to say from eight days and on it can be brought. 47:14 מיום השמיני והלאה ירצה, מיום השמיני אין מעיקרא לא. And that's לאו הבא מכלל עשה. 47:21 It's a lav which comes from an asei and that therefore is what's its halakhic status? 47:27 It is an asei. 47:28 The Gemara goes a little further. 47:29 ומי מבעי ליה לכדרבי אפטוריקי. But this is a question according to Rabbi Aptoriki. 47:34 Why? Derabbi Aptoriki rami. He asked that there's a stirah. Ksiv: והיה שבעת ימים תחת אמו. 47:40 It says in the pasuk that an animal that's born should spend the first seven days of its life with its mother. 47:45 Halaila gaz, it sounds like on the night, the seventh night, which is the night of the eighth, it would be appropriate to be brought as a korban because שבעת ימים תחת אמו. 47:57 However the problem is וכתיב מיום השמיני והלאה ירצה. 48:01 It says on the eighth day going forward it will be permissible. 48:03 מיום השמיני והלאה ירצה, מיום השמיני אין לילה לא. So we have a stirah about the night of the eighth. 48:10 The pasuk says for the first seven days it should stay with its mother. 48:14 From the eighth day on it can be brought as a korban. 48:17 So what about that period of time between the seventh day and the eighth day, which is the evening of the eighth? 48:26 So what does he learn from here? 48:27 Ha keitzad? Laila lekidusha, once it hits the night of the eighth, you're allowed to designate it as a korban. Yom lehartza'a, once it reaches the eighth day it could be actually brought as a korban. 48:41 So now the problem just is, what's the Gemara saying with this? 48:44 How could you tell me that this pasuk ends up being a lav hanitak la'asei, which makes it an asei? 48:51 We use this pasuk to teach you the actual halakhah. 48:54 In other words, the wording of the pasuk which says והיה שבעת ימים תחת אמו and then מיום השמיני והלאה ירצה, it's not a lav hanitak la'asei, it's actually the prescription what should be done. 49:06 First seven days off limits. 49:08 Night of the eighth it could be designated as a korban. 49:11 Day of the eighth it could be brought as a korban. 49:13 It's not a lav hanitak la'asei, it's not לאו הבא מכלל עשה. 49:16 Says the Gemara: You're right. 49:17 There are two psukim. Krachina ksiv: כן תעשה לשורך לצאנך. 49:21 The pasuk says this is in Shemos, it says: כן תעשה לשורך לצאנך, שבעת ימים יהיה עם אמו, seven days it should be with its mother, וביום השמיני תתנו לי. 49:32 On the eighth day it should be given to me. 49:34 That's where the pasuk clearly has first a lav and then it's nitak la'asei, which makes it an asei. 49:39 Ultimately once it becomes an asei, a positive action, there's no malkos for it. 49:43 So back to the question at the beginning of this sugya, why is there no malkos for mechussar zman? 49:49 Why is there no malkos for bringing a korban prematurely? 49:51 The answer is because the prohibition of bringing a korban prematurely, ultimately while it sounds like a lav, sounds like a negative commandment, it is a positive commandment and there is no malkos for a positive commandment. 50:03 Hello and welcome to the daily daf, I'm Rabbi Mordechai Fleisher, and this is today's daf, Zevachim, daf chaf cheis.
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