Transcript Translit עברית
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0:01 good morning, let us begin, begin with all of our sponsors for this morning Share the theme. 0:08 Our Talmud Torah sponsors for the month of Habba Aleinu L’tova Mel and Karen Romm for a Refuah Sheleimah for Pnina Bas Elisheva, Azriel and Iris Miller and Adam and Leslie Rosen Le-ilui Nishmat Dr. 0:19 Joseph Miller חיים יוסף בן ראובן זכרונו לברכה, L’ilui Nishmat of ירחמיאל מאיר בן פרלה and גיטל בת יוסף עקיבא in memory of our rabbi Dr. 0:34 Nachum Schorr הרב נחום בן הרב חיים יהושע זכרונו לברכה. Our day of learning sponsors: Zev Mayer and Danielle in memory of חנה שרה בת מאיר הלוי, Zev's great grandmother. 0:47 Le-ilui Nishmat. Our Daf Yomi sponsors for today: Eyal and Sarah Steinberg in the Sussex continued Refuah Sheleimah for Chana Bas Susha and for an ultimate Refuah Sheleimah, and Milt and Melanie Gertner in memory of Melanie's father Roger Giffner דניאל ראובן בן אברהם זכרונו לברכה. 1:06 We hope that in the merit of our Talmud Torah, all of the Neshamot should have an Aliyah, the families Nichamah, all those who need a Refuah Sheleimah in the Klal of Cholay Yisrael, and we should be Zocheh Bimhera BiYameinu for Besurot Tovot for Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael. B’ezrat, 1:20 let us begin. A lot to do today. 1:21 A really great Daf ahead of us today. 1:23 Today's Daf is Pe Bet. 1:24 82. We are picking up B’Ezrat Hashem on Pe Aleph Amud Bet 81B, and let's just pick up actually at the V'azdu L'taamaihu, which is 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 lines up from the bottom. 1:39 So Rabosai, remember again just to reorient ourselves a bit, we had a fascinating Mishna. 1:44 And in the Mishna's case, essentially what was happening over here is you shechted an animal, but the shechitah did not result in an ability to consume the animal because there was some issue with the shechitah. 1:56 The shechitah itself, we'll call it like procedurally, was absolutely fine. 2:00 But for example, remember the case of the Mishna, you went ahead and you shechted the animal, it was a treifah or you shechted it for avodah zarah, or a parah adumah, or a shor haniskal, or an eglah arufah. 2:11 So in all of these cases, the shechitah mechanistically was kasher, but there's another factor that prevents you from going ahead and eating the animal. 2:20 So the shaila essentially became, does the din of Oso V'es Beno apply? 2:25 If you were now to go ahead and shecht the offspring, the child of that animal, are you in violation? 2:32 So the Chachamim said yes and Rabbi Shimon said no. 2:37 Rabbi Shimon said no. 2:38 So if you remember again, so ultimately again, the Ikar of Rabbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish were talking about, had a fundamental machlokes. 2:47 Had a fundamental machlokes. 2:48 So the Gemara says v'azdu l'taamaihu. 2:51 Okay, so that's reorienting ourselves. 2:52 V'azdu l'taamaihu. So they both go according to their reasoning. 2:55 כי אתא רב דימי אמר חייבי מיתות שוגגין וחייבי מלקות שוגגין ודבר אחר. So Rabosai, remember again, this is kind of the case that we were speaking about before. 3:05 So just, let me go back for one moment. 3:08 So Resh Lakish was the one who said that all of this only applies where you're shechting the avodah zarah animal first, but then you go and you shecht the young. 3:16 However, again, if you shechted the young first, this offspring, and then the avodah zarah animal, there's no Oso V'es Beno. 3:22 Why? Because קים ליה בדרבה מיניה. Right? 3:25 Because you're chayav ultimately for the avodah zarah. 3:28 Rabbi Yochanan said, come on, even kids know that. 3:31 Rather, Rabbi Yochanan said that halacha l'maaseh, it could very well be that even if you shecht the avodah zarah animal first, you still might not be in violation. 3:41 Why? And he spoke about a case ultimately again of where you gave hasra'ah only for Oso V'es Beno and not for avodah zarah. 3:49 Okay, so now the Gemara says, the truth is they go according to their reasoning. 3:52 Why? We're dealing with the following case. 3:54 What happens if you committed an act which essentially results in dual liability? 3:59 It gives you chiyuv for malkos and misa? 4:02 Or misa, let's just go with misa. 4:04 You do something that incurs a death penalty and also a monetary liability. 4:11 So what's the halacha? 4:12 Rabbi Yochanan chayav. Rabbi Yochanan says that you're going to be chayav. 4:14 Resh Lakish amar pattur. And Resh Lakish says that you are going to be pattur. 4:19 Now Rashi says over here, Rabbi Yochanan amar chayav. 4:21 If you take a look, it's the third wide line in Rashi: באותו דבר אחר שעם המיתה הואיל ואינו נהרג וכן חייבי מלקות שוגגין ודבר אחר שעבר עבירה שיש בה מלקות וממון כגון אכל מעשר שני של חבירו בירושלים או נבלה וטרפה. 4:36 So again, Rabosai, Rabbi Yochanan says you're chayav. 4:38 Why? Because Rabbi Yochanan sets this up as a case where you received hasra'ah for the monetary liability but not receive hasra'ah for the capital liability. 4:49 So if you didn't get hasra'ah, you didn't get hasra'ah. 4:51 So therefore even though you did something that halacha lema'aseh incurs a death penalty because you did not get hasra'ah for the death penalty, therefore halacha lema'aseh you'll get, you'll get the monetary liability. 5:01 ריש לקיש אמר פטור. So the Gemara says Rabbi Yochanan says you're chayav why? 5:05 Dehalo asru beih because you didn't get hasra'ah for the capital crime. 5:09 Reish Lakish says you're patur why? 5:13 דכיון דכי אתרו ביה פטור כי לא אתרו ביה נמי פטור. So Rabosai Reish Lakish advances this fascinating idea. 5:20 Reish Lakish says that essentially we don't look at whether or not you did get hasra'ah, rather what do we look at? 5:25 We look at the acts. 5:27 We look at the acts themselves. 5:28 So interestingly enough Reish Lakish says the concept of קים ליה בדרבה מיניה says that whenever you do an act and that act results in dual liability, and one of those liabilities is a capital liability, whether or not you're actually going to be executed almost 5:45 is irrelevant. What matters is the act itself is one that carries capital liability. 5:51 If it's an act that carries capital liability then by definition you will be exempted from financial liability independent of what the actual sentence is going to be. 6:01 So let me take this back one step. 6:04 Everyone agrees to the principle of קים ליה בדרבה מיניה. 6:07 Now קים ליה בדרבה מיניה means again Kim lei means establish him bedirabba minei in the punishment of greater intensity. 6:15 So what that means is we've seen this throughout Shas. 6:17 I Reuven commits an act, that act results in dual liability. 6:22 One of the liabilities is a capital one and one of the liabilities is a financial one, and it's the same thing. 6:27 I'll give you just a perfect example of this. 6:28 I go over to Reuven and I go ahead and I eat the, I eat Reuven's, I go ahead and I stole Reuven's, I stole Reuven's food and I ate it on Yom Kippur. 6:41 I shouldn't be doing this. 6:43 I'm just saying I did this, right? 6:45 So now if you think about this again there's two liabilities over here. 6:48 There's misa for eating on Yom Kippur, actually not the best example but just illustrative in nature, right? 6:55 There's misa for eating on Yom Kippur and there's also theft. 6:58 There's also theft. Now by the way the reason why it's not necessarily the best example is because, I'm sorry, right good, because there's no simultaneity. 7:06 Okay, calm down everyone. 7:08 Alright leave me alone. 7:08 It's four-oh-six in the morning, right? 7:11 I bit the apple off the branch. 7:14 Okay, good, good. You know I have a good idea, you find your own examples, right good? 7:18 But the idea over here is good, Baruch Hashem, so glad to be challenged on my examples, this is great, this is great. 7:23 So Rabosai so lema'aseh assuming there's simultaneity, okay assuming there's simultaneity, so there's simultaneity and again there's a chiyuv misa and a chiyuv mammon. 7:33 That's what's happening over here, misa and mammon occurring at the same time. 7:37 So at the end of the day again everyone agrees in the concept of קים ליה בדרבה מיניה. 7:45 Hasheila is Rabbi Yochanan says it's only קים ליה בדרבה מיניה if you're actually going to be executed. 7:51 In other words, if you've actually incurred the capital liability then you're exempted from the financial one. 7:57 But if for some reason you're not going to get the capital punishment, I don't know, you didn't get hasra'ah, there weren't eidim, whatever it is, then you're chayav for the financial liability. 8:08 Reish Lakish looks at it differently. 8:09 Reish Lakish says this is not actually about the punishment, this is about the conceptual framework. 8:15 Anytime you do an act which generates these two liabilities, by definition the financial liability is set aside whether or not the capital liability is going to be imposed. 8:26 So it's so everyone it's fascinating, everyone is accepting the principle, Hasheila is in the implementation of the principle. 8:32 Quite fascinating. Rabosai, therefore again the Gemara just illustrates this machlokes in two ways. 8:37 One by, one by the oso ve'es bno and ultimately again one by, one by this other, this braisa over here. 8:45 The Gemara says tzericha, I need both cases. 8:47 Why? De'ashme'inan bahach because if we would have just mentioned the shechita case, בהא קאמר ריש לקיש, it's in this case that Reish Lakish holds his position by, by the shechita case but perhaps not by the braisa above, אבל בהא אימא מודה ליה לרבי יוחנן, but perhaps in the second case he 9:02 would agree with Rabbi Yochanan. Ve'itmar bahach, and if it would have only said this second case, בהא קאמר רבי יוחנן, this is where Rabbi Yochanan says his position, אבל בהא אימא מודה ליה לריש לקיש, but perhaps over here he would agree with Reish Lakish. 9:17 Therefore tzericha. Rabosai, we're going to see the interesting distinction between the braisa which again remember the braisa itself is a nondescript case, it doesn't really give an example. 9:24 The interesting part with the shechita case, and we're going to just pay, remember this, this phrase is what we call gufin mechulakin. Gufin mechulakin just means that ultimately again you're dealing with independent bodies. 9:36 It's two different things, there's a mother and a child. 9:38 So therefore because of that the cases themselves are somewhat dissimilar and therefore they have to both be mentioned. 9:43 be mentioned. But again, bottom line what we are left with over here is a fundamental machlokes about קים ליה בדרבה מיניה. 9:49 Everyone agrees with the principle, but the shaile just is the nature of the implementation of the actual principle. 9:56 Incredible. So let's go weiter. 9:58 Rabbosai, let's go back for just a second. 10:02 So remember again, part of part of we're now jumping back to the Mishna for just a second. 10:08 But remember again, part of the issue in the Mishna is or or the machlokes in the Mishna is what we call shechita she'eino re'uya. 10:16 Now what does shechita she'eino re'uya mean? 10:17 Literally an unfit shechita. 10:19 Now what does an unfit shechita mean? 10:21 The shechita procedurally, mechanistically, is absolutely fine. 10:26 Right, it's a kosher shechita. 10:27 It's a kosher shechita. So what's the issue over here? 10:30 There's some other factor that's coming along and preventing you from eating the animal. 10:35 For example, it was a traifa. 10:37 It's avoda zara, right? It's egla arufa, sha'atnez, whatever it is. 10:41 The shechita logistically, mechanistically is fine. 10:43 So the gemara says one second. 10:44 Now included in that list was paras chattas, para aduma. 10:47 So the gemara says: Is that true? 10:49 Is that true that the shechita of a para aduma is a shechita she'eino re'uya, that you can't eat the para aduma? Vetanya we learn, listen to this. 10:56 Rabbi Shimon says פרה מטמאה טומאת אוכלין. 11:00 Wow, that's fascinating. Para aduma contracts food tuma. 11:05 Now rabbosai, the only way to contract food tuma is is if you're food, right? 11:09 That's it. It's a very low bar, but you've got to reach it, right? 11:12 If you're food, you contract tumas ochlin. 11:15 So the gemara says הואיל והיתה לה שעת הכושר. 11:18 Now this is very interesting. 11:19 Since para aduma technically speaking had a window of consumption, therefore it is subject to tumas ochlin. 11:26 Take a look at Rashi: הואיל והיתה לה שעת הכושר. 11:29 Rashi says לאכילה אף לעצמו משנשחטה ומהו שעת הכושר שלה. So rabbosai, interestingly enough, para aduma had a window of consumption. 11:38 What's the window of consumption? 11:40 Rabbosai, look at the top of פה בית עמוד א, 82A, today's daf. 11:43 So the gemara says אמר ריש לקיש אמר היה רבי שמעון פרה נפדית אגבי מערכתה. 11:50 So rabbosai, listen to this. 11:51 If you go ahead and you shecht the para aduma, right? 11:54 Because remember again para aduma does require proper shechita. 11:56 Let's say you shechted it. 11:58 You have it on the pyre, right? 12:00 You're ready to burn it. 12:01 Because remember again para aduma is reduced to ash. 12:03 You're ready to burn it and then what happens? 12:05 You find a nicer para aduma. 12:08 A better para aduma. I don't know, better conversationalist, whatever it is. 12:14 You know, you know, better middos. 12:15 You know, whatever whatever it is. 12:16 So you find a better para aduma. Rabbosai, by the way, Alan Meirov just gave me this this article mamash that the second second para aduma born in Shilo. 12:28 Second para aduma born in Shilo. 12:30 Incredible the times that we're living in over here. 12:32 Incredible. So the gemara says as follows: אמר ריש לקיש אמר היה רבי שמעון פרה נפדית אגב מערכתה. 12:37 So quite incredibly, if you go ahead and you have you the para aduma's on the pyre, you're ready to burn it, and you find a nicer para aduma, what's the halacha? 12:47 You could redeem the first para aduma. 12:49 Now rabbosai, now what do you do with the redeemed para aduma? 12:52 What do you do with it? 12:53 Hapashut, gemara says you could even eat it. 12:55 Take a look at the top Rashi for just a moment. 12:56 אמר ריש לקיש אמר היה רבי שמעון פרה נפדית אם מצא נאה הימנה אפילו אגב מערכתה אפילו נשחטה כהלכתה על המערכה של עצים שנשחטה עליה כדי לפדות פרה חזר רבי שמעון כל העומד לפדות כפדוי דמי וקרינא ביה שעת הכושר לאכילה. So rabbosai, this is actually incredible. 13:22 So halacha lema'aseh now again rabbosai this also goes back yesterday to what we said yesterday. 13:26 Remember para aduma is very unique because the kedusha para aduma is, remember again kedushas bedek habayis. 13:31 Interestingly enough, it's not sacrificial kedusha. 13:35 It's bedek habayis. Because it's bedek habayis also that means usually that means it's financial sanctity and not necessarily physical sanctity. 13:43 Okay, but without getting into that, point over here is fascinatingly enough, you could swap out the first para aduma for a nicer second one. 13:51 And then halacha lema'aseh apparently you could even eat it. 13:54 And therefore it has tumas ochlin. 13:55 אמר רב שמואל בר אבא amar Rabbi Yochanan You're right. 13:59 Take out paras chattas. It shouldn't be in the Mishna. 14:03 It's fascinating. Take it out. 14:04 Strike it. Strike it from the record, right? 14:06 It should not be in the Mishna because ein hachi nami the shechita of the para aduma is a shechita re'uya. 14:13 It's it is it is a proper shechita. 14:15 Why? Because technically speaking, it's it can become food. 14:19 Ve'haraya, that's why by the way it contracts tumas ochlin because technically speaking, up until the time you burn it, if you want to swap it out for a nicer one, you have the ability to do so. 14:29 So take it out of the Mishna. 14:31 So let's go through the list. 14:32 What about egla arufa? Egla arufa's also on the list over here. 14:35 Right? Remember again, what did the Mishna speak about? 14:37 Now remember also egla arufa, you find a chas veshalom a dead person between two cities. 14:42 We measure to the closest city, the elders of that closest city come out and they bring out a calf and they decapitate the calf on a dry riverbed, they wash their hands over the decapitated calf, they say ידינו לא שפכו דם זה, our hands 14:54 have not spilled this blood, that is eglah arufa. 14:57 So the Mishna had this in the list of shechita she'eina ra'uya. 15:00 So the Gemara says, really? 15:01 Eglah arufa shechita she'eina ra'uya? This v'tanya now we learn, listen to this: נמצא ההורג עד שלא תערף. 15:07 So watch this. Now remember, eglah arufa's only brought in a case where you find someone who has been murdered and you don't know who the murderer is. 15:16 Let's say watch the following case: what happens if the eglah, the live calf, is being led down to the dry riverbed, and they find the murderer before they decapitated the calf? 15:30 So what's the halacha? Teitzei v'tireh ba'eder. 15:33 So what do you do with the calf? 15:36 Let it go. Literally teitzei means it can go out, v'tireh it can graze with the rest of the calves. 15:42 So rabosai, what do you see from here? 15:44 Now obviously if it's grazing with the rest of the calves, what does that mean? 15:48 That technically it's muttar, right? 15:50 So the point over here is that you see that by eglah arufa, ultimately again, obviously rabosai, once it's killed. 16:00 Now remember, eglah arufa's a little bit different because eglah arufa's not shechted, right? 16:05 Eglah arufa is decapitated from the back of the neck. 16:08 So obviously after you're decapitating it, of course it's a neveilah, there's nothing more to talk about. 16:14 But the point over here is, if you were to shecht an eglah arufa, it would be okay. 16:20 That'd be okay. To which the Gemara says you're right. 16:22 אמר ריש לקיש משום רבי ינאי עגלה ערופה אינה מן המשנה. I suppose this Mishna's getting dramatically shorter by the moment. 16:28 You're right, take out eglah arufa, it doesn't belong in there, because ein hachi nami if you were to shecht it, it would be a proper shechita. 16:35 Okay. ומי אמר רבי ינאי הכי והאמר רבי ינאי גבול שמעתי בה ושכחתי. So Rabbi Yannai said, listen to this, he says, gvul shamati. Rashi says mi'amah ad asarah. 16:46 I heard that gvul literally means a boundary, but like a line. 16:50 I heard there was a line that on one side of the line the eglah arufa is assur, on the other side of the line he's talking about a halachic line, the eglah arufa's muttar. 16:59 But what happened? V'shachachti, I forgot. 17:03 I forgot. V'nasvin chavray lomar, then my friends came along, rabosai this is such a profound Gemara. 17:09 My friends came along and said, rabosai, no person could go ahead and retain all the information, no person could have all of the answers. 17:16 So what's the ikar avodah in life? 17:18 The ikar avodah in life is surround yourself with good people, surround yourself with good influences because the stuff that you forget or the stuff that you never knew or the questions that you have sometimes could be answered by the holy chevra 17:31 around you. ונסבין חבריי לומר ירידתה לנחל איתן היא אוסרתה. And rabosai we learned to say that what? 17:38 That literally what's the line? 17:40 When you take it down to the dry riverbed. 17:42 Before you take it down to the dry riverbed, ultimately again, the eglah arufa's technically muttar, which means if you were to shecht it would be muttar. 17:48 Once you take it down to the dry riverbed, ultimately again it is assur. 17:53 ואי איתא לשני כאן קודם ירידה כאן לאחר ירידה. So go ahead and say, when do we say that by eglah arufa it's shechita ra'uya, that it's a fit shechita? 18:03 That's before you take it down to the riverbed. 18:06 But perhaps once you take it down to the riverbed, again even though it's still alive, halacha l'maaseh it's shechita she'eina ra'uya. 18:12 אמר רב פנחס בריה דרב אמי אנן משמיה דריש לקיש מתנינן לה. The truth is we actually hold like Reish Lakish. 18:19 עגלה ערופה אינה מן המשנה. And Reish Lakish said, ultimately again eglah arufa is not part of the Mishna. 18:26 Take it out because ein hachi nami if you were to properly shecht an eglah arufa, it would be a shechita ra'uya and because it's a shechita ra'uya it's not part of the machlokes Rabbi Shimon and the Chachamim. 18:37 Incredible. אמר רב אשי כי הוינא בי רב פפא. Rav Ashi when I was in house of Rav Pappa, קשיא לן מי אמר ריש לקיש הכי והא איתמר. 18:47 Rabosai but we learned the following. 18:52 What did we learn? 18:53 ציפורי מצורע מאימתי נאסרין. Metzora birds. Remember again rabosai part of the Metzora's purification process involves birds. 19:01 So ציפורי מצורע מאימתי נאסרין. From what point ultimately again do they go ahead and become assur? 19:10 רבי יוחנן אמר משעת שחיטה. Netanel Gertz, Netanel, you could come sit up here, you don't have to sit in the back row, there's a seat over here for you. 19:20 Yeah? Unless you want to come right over here. 19:26 Reb Shmuel show him where the seat is, right behind us, mamash, incredible. 19:38 Good. Rabosai this is why, like I know, it's ערב ערב תשעה באב. 19:41 It's erev... of Tisha B'av, and you know, and you know like a Yid never holds out, you never lose hope, right? 19:47 Even, even tomorrow night by Kinnos, and I think you never hold out hope but like sometimes Hakadosh Baruch Hu allows you to see something and you realize that like we are part of just the most incredible and overwhelming nation in the world. 20:00 Who else, who else, who else has children like this? 20:05 Who else, who else raises their children, Baruch Hashem, to deprive themselves of sleep unnecessarily just to come and learn the Ribbono Shel Olam's Torah. 20:13 If you ever wonder about the nitzchius of Klal Yisrael, it's sitting right here in a hat and a tie-dye t-shirt. 20:20 You know, that's it, that's it. 20:24 Incredible. Okay, Gemara says as follows. 20:26 The Gemara says והאיתמר צפורי מצורע מאימתי נאסרין. 20:32 So tzipporei metzora, right, ultimately again from what point in time are the tzipporei metzora assur? 20:36 So again remember these are the birds, these are the birds that are used as part of the metzora process. 20:42 So Rabbi Yochanan, Rabbi Yochanan says mishe'as shechita, from the time of shechita and on. 20:47 Reish Lakish amar, Reish Lakish says mishe'as l'kichah, interesting enough from the time that you purchase it. 20:52 So Gemara says barminan and we say מאי טעמא דריש לקיש? 20:55 What's Reish Lakish's logic? גמר קיחה קיחה מעגלה ערופה. 21:00 This is very interesting. 21:02 So he has a gezeirah shavah of kichah kichah. 21:04 By the way, if this sounds familiar, kichah kichah, right, this is the opening Gemara Masechet Kesuvos, right, קיחה קיחה משדה עפרון. 21:11 But again the Gemara says Reish Lakish says גמר קיחה קיחה מעגלה ערופה. 21:16 He learns out a gezeirah shavah from eglah arufah. 21:18 So the point over here is it says kichah by eglah arufah, it says kichah ultimately again by the birds of the metzora. 21:24 So we're saying that just as the eglah arufah becomes assur from the time of purchase, so too tzipporei metzora. 21:31 But that was, good. 21:32 Gemara says אלא אמר רב חייא בר אבא אמר רבי יוחנן עגלה ערופה אינה משנה. So again we come back to that same conclusion that eglah arufah ultimately again is going to be removed from the mishnah itself because eglah arufah ultimately does not fit into this category of shechita she'einah re'uyah. 21:50 So just before we go on, how do we pasken halachah lema'aseh over here? 21:54 Because remember this is really a fascinating case. 21:56 So the Rambam says over here, the Rambam says this in הלכות שחיטה פרק יב הלכה ז. שחיטה שאינה ראויה לאכילה שמה שחיטה. 22:06 So this is how the Rambam paskens. 22:08 Even though a shechita does not produce something fit for consumption, as long as the shechita was mechanistically good, then ultimately it's a shechita. 22:18 Therefore, lefichach, הראשון ששחט חולין בעזרה או טריפה שנסקל ועגלה ערופה פרה אדומה או ששחט לעכום ובא אחריו ושחט את השני לוקה. Therefore, halachah lema'aseh, we pasken like the chachamim in the mishnah. 22:37 Therefore, if you were to go ahead and shecht the first animal, right, the mother, and the mother was an eglah arufah, parah adumah, shor haniskal, whatever the case is, so the mother herself is not fit for consumption, so it's what we call a shechita she'einah re'uyah, the 22:55 shechita does not produce a consumable animal. 22:57 Halachah lema'aseh, if you were then to go ahead and shecht the child, ultimately it would be assur. 23:03 You'd be in violation of oso ve'es bno because we pasken shechita she'einah re'uyah. 23:08 See, the Rambam just adds in one, the Gemara calls it שחיטה שאינה ראויה שמה שחיטה. 23:13 The Rambam just adds in one word and he says שחיטה שאינה ראויה לאכילה, which helps to really crystallize the entire statement. 23:20 A shechita that does not produce something that is fit for consumption but mechanistically is a proper shechita is still called shechita. 23:30 And therefore halachah lema'aseh, even if the mother is not fit for consumption, halachah lema'aseh if you shechted her then even though you can't eat the mother, if you shechted then the offspring, you would be in violation of oso ve'es bno. 23:41 Incredible mishnah, says an interesting case. 23:44 שניים שלקחו פרה ובנה. Listen to how great this case is. 23:48 Let's say Reuven and Shimon, they walk into the shuk together, right, they walk into the animal shuk together, and they both purchase at the same time. 23:55 Reuven buys the mother, Shimon buys the ben. Shimon buys the ben. 24:00 Now what's the shaylah? 24:02 Both want to eat dinner that night, both want to eat dinner then, and remember again we've established that the issur of oso ve'es bno is not on one person, right? 24:11 Halachah lema'aseh and we'll see this clearly in just a moment, but even if you have two different owners of the animals, right, one owns the mother, one owns the child, still the mother and child cannot be shechted on the same day. 24:22 So the classic example of this is where it's one person who owns both animals. 24:26 But now the mishnah's case is Reuven and Shimon both walk into the shuk together, Reuven buys the mother, Shimon buys the ben. 24:33 So now the shaylah is who gets first rights over here, right? 24:37 At the end of the day who gets to shecht the animal on Tuesday and who has to wait until Wednesday? 24:43 Wednesday. שניים שלקחו פרה ובנה איזה שלקח מהן ראשון ישחוט ראשון ואם קדם השני זכה. So a very straightforward halacha. 24:53 Whoever bought first shechts first, right? 24:56 Bought first shechts first. 24:57 That's it, right? That's it, doesn't matter, the mother, the son, whoever bought first gets the right to shecht first. 25:04 Now obviously, if the second purchaser ends up is faster on the draw, right, he's faster with the knife, right, and he shechts first, zakha, okay? 25:12 Then then whatever, then even the first purchaser still has to wait till the next day. 25:16 The Gemara says: אמר רב יוסף לעניין דינא תנן. 25:19 This is a halacha, right? 25:20 In other words, rabosai, this is like a, this is like almost a Choshen Mishpat halacha, not an issur halacha, right? 25:26 There's no issur over here, it's just talking about literally who has the right to shecht first. 25:30 Purchase first, shecht first. 25:32 תנא אם קדם השני הרי הוא זריז ונשכר. So listen, watch this. 25:36 If the second guy, if the second purchaser ended up shechting his animal first, listen to this lashon: he's zariz, he's alacritous, ve-niskar, and he's rewarded. 25:45 The Gemara says: זריז דלא עבד איסורא. 25:48 Zariz, in that he didn't do anything wrong. 25:50 In other words, as much as technically speaking the first purchaser has the right to shecht first, if the second purchaser was quicker on the draw and he shecht it first, okay, okay, again, he he he did he didn't do anything 26:03 wrong, de-lo avad issura, ve-niskar, and he's rewarded how? 26:07 That's obvious: de-achal bisra. He's having a good dinner, right? 26:12 He's right, he's eating a good steak. 26:13 So he gets zariz, zariz ve-niskar. Rabosai, very very profound. 26:18 That halacha l'maisa, again, we've spoken about this so many different times, you know, throughout the years about the power of zerizus, the power of zerizus, right, and the ability to take advantage of life opportunities when they come about, right, because if 26:31 you wait, if you wait, doors close, opportunities go away. 26:34 Incredible, zariz ve-niskar. Rabosai, but what is important to understand is that as the halacha. 26:39 The halacha me'ikar ha-din is, the halacha me'ikar ha-din is first purchaser gets first right of shechita, second purchaser has to wait until the next day. 26:49 Mishna: Rabosai, very interesting case here. 26:52 Let's say you shecht the mother and then right after you shecht the mother you shecht two of its offspring. 26:58 Right, so you're doing all of this on the same day. 27:00 What's the halacha? Sofeg shmonim. You'll get two sets of malkus. 27:05 Two sets of, right, eight, remember again, you're not literally getting 40 malkus, it's 39, or however many the Beis Din assesses you're capable of handling, but when we say shmonim it means two sets of malkus. 27:14 Why two sets of malkus? 27:15 Why, why? Two offspring, two kids. 27:18 Good. שחט שני בניה ואחר כך שחטה. What happens if you shechted the two siblings, right, and then you shechted the mother? 27:28 Then what's the halacha? Sofeg es ha-arba'im. 27:30 You only get one set of malkus, which makes sense, why? 27:32 There's no prohibition to shecht the siblings on the same day. 27:36 So if you shechted the two siblings and then the mother, one set of malkus, fine. 27:39 שחטה ואת בתה ואת בת בתה. Listen to this case. 27:43 שחטה ואת בתה ואת בת בתה. So watch this, this is fascinating. 27:48 Let's say you shechted, right, we'll call it, we'll call it the cow, right the cow, her daughter, and her granddaughter. 27:55 Right, again this is a gender-neutral example but I'm just giving it like that. 27:59 Right, doesn't I'm just saying it doesn't doesn't matter, right, you shechted the cow, her daughter, right her daughter, and her granddaughter. 28:06 So what's the halacha? Sofeg shmonim. 28:09 You'll get two sets of malkus. 28:10 Why two sets of malkus? 28:11 Right, one, right, remember one one one for the, we'll call it, we'll call it cow, I'm going to call it cow, daughter, granddaughter. 28:19 Right, one for cow and daughter, and then one for daughter and granddaughter. 28:24 Two oso v'es binos in that. 28:25 שחטה ואת בת בתה ואחר כך שחט את בתה. Now watch this. 28:30 What happens if you reversed the order? 28:32 What happens if you shechted cow, then granddaughter, and then daughter? 28:37 Now again, rabosai, now what happens over here? 28:39 Sofeg es arba'im. You only get one set of malkus. 28:42 Why, what's the logic? 28:43 The logic is because remember there is no prohibition to shecht a cow and its granddaughter. 28:47 It's only the cow and its daughter. 28:50 So if you shechted cow, granddaughter, and then daughter, you'll get malkus for what? 28:55 For what? For granddaughter and daughter. 28:56 Right because remember again as we've as we'll see in just a moment, the order of mother daughter, right, doesn't matter. 29:02 So you get one set of malkus. 29:03 סומכוס אומר סומכוס בשם רבי מאיר סופג שמונים. Sumchus says no, in that case, in that case ultimately again of cow, granddaughter, mother, you'll get two sets of malkus also. 29:13 Okay, let's analyze. Amai? 29:15 Now again the Gemara says, rabosai, now remember the Gemara asks, but one second, I don't understand, why are you liable ultimately again for shechting the offspring before, now remember again, in the Mishna's first case, if you shechted the offspring, let's 29:29 say two offspring and then the mother, halacha l'maisa you're chayav once, right? 29:33 You get one set of malkus. 29:34 But that presupposes that shechting the offspring before the mother generates liability. 29:39 But remember, I just want to point out, what's the lashon of the pasuk? 29:41 The lashon of the pasuk... 29:43 is oto ve'et beno, which indicates the mother and the offspring, which would seem to indicate that the mother is shechted first and then the offspring. 29:51 But the mishna clearly indicates that even if you shecht the offspring first, you're chayav, but why? 29:56 Amai? אותו ואת בנו אמר רחמנא velo beno ve'oto. But that's not the pasuk. 30:01 The pasuk only seems to indicate that halacha lema'aseh, that halacha lema'aseh it is only if you first shecht the mother and then the offspring that you're chayav. 30:09 But if you shecht the offspring first and then the mother, why would you be chayav? 30:13 לא סלקא דעתך דתניא oto ve'et beno ein li ela oto ve'et beno. Let's look at the brysa. 30:18 The brysa says the pasuk says oto ve'et beno. 30:21 I only know that you're chayav if you shecht the mother and then the child. 30:24 אותו ואת אמו מנין? How do I know that even if we shecht the offspring and then the mother that you're chayav? 30:30 כשהוא אומר לא תשחטו harei kan shnayim. So it says, this is really interesting. 30:36 When the, bless you, when the pasuk says, when it says shor o seh אותו ואת בנו לא תשחטו beyom echad. 30:45 It says ultimately again, the mother and its offspring, right, you shall not, you shall not go ahead and shecht, shecht them beyom echad. 30:54 So why the plural? 30:56 The Gemara says harei kan shnayim to teach that there are two constructs. 30:58 What are the two constructs? 31:00 Parent and child and then child and then parent. 31:02 So the Gemara says ha keitzad אחד השוחט את הפרה ואחד השוחט את אמו ואחד השוחט את בנו. 31:10 So the Gemara says, I'm sorry, ha keitzad אחד השוחט את הפרה ואחד השוחט את אמו. 31:15 So now watch this. 31:17 Now the Gemara says to teach us the following case. 31:20 Now harei kan shnayim if you look at rashi, rashi says הזיר את שניהם בין ששוחט את האם בין ששוחט את הבת ולא משכחת לה שנים עוברים אלא בשלוש בהמות. 31:30 So now we're going to see a very interesting case over here. 31:33 So the point the Gemara's making over here is that the plural, we're going to see the plurality of the pasuk teaches us two things. 31:38 Number one, if there's more than one person involved. 31:41 Right? Even if you have multiple people shechting the mother and the child, right two different people, and furthermore, the order is not going to matter either. 31:48 ha keitzad אחד השוחט את הפרה ואחד השוחט את אמו ואחד השוחט את בנו. So ultimately again, now watch this. 31:57 Let's say you have this case, let's say you have three people, right, one is shechting the mother, right, one or one is shechting the offspring. 32:03 One is shechting the mother, right, and let's say again, or I'll say it differently, one is shechting a para. 32:09 Then ultimately again another one, another one is shechting the mother, and another one is shechting the offspring, right. 32:15 So again, so really this is the case of our mishna of cow, daughter, granddaughter. 32:21 So let's say you have one person shechting, one person in this case over here is one person shechting daughter, one person shechting cow, and one person shechting granddaughter. 32:31 What's the halacha? So the Gemara says shnayim acharonim chayavin, the two latter ones, i.e., what we call daughter granddaughter, are ultimately going to be in violation because obviously the one who slaughters cow, there's no problem with slaughtering cow because that's the first 32:44 animal slaughtered, right, it's the one ultimately again who's shechting daughter and granddaughter that are going to be in violation of oto ve'et beno. amud beis. 32:51 So the Gemara says הא מיבעי ליה לגופיה. 32:53 But one second, but that's not, so all of this is learned out from the plurality of lo tishchatu. 32:59 But the Gemara says, one second, I need that pasuk to teach me the ikkar prohibition. 33:03 im ken lichtov lo tishchat. If that's the case it could just say lo tishchat. mai lo tishchatu? 33:09 So ultimately again why the plural? 33:11 In other words, if it was just to teach me the issur of oto ve'et beno, so just say lo tishchat. 33:16 Why do you need ultimately again to be phrased in the plural? 33:19 אם כן לכתוב לא תשחט. mai lo tishchatu? mai lo tishchatu? ve'akati miba'ei lei. One second, I still need it. 33:25 Why? דכתב רחמנא לא תשחט. If the Torah would have just said lo tishchat, lo tishchato sorry, hava amina chad in trei lo. 33:40 I would have thought that there's only liability when there's one person doing the shchita. 33:43 But what happens if there's two people doing the shchita? 33:46 Right, one person is shechting the mother, one person is shechting the offspring? 33:49 I would have thought that ultimately again there's no liability when there's more than one shochet. rachmana lo tishchatu. 33:57 Therefore the pasuk says do not shecht plural, which indicates to us what? 34:02 Even if there is more than one person involved in the process of shchita, ultimately there will be liability. 34:08 afillu trei. im ken lichtov rachmana lo yishchatu. If that's the case let the pasuk say lo yishchatu. lo yishchatu would be more correct. 34:17 lo yishchatu would mean they should not slaughter. 34:20 mai lo tishchatu? What does it mean lo tishchatu? shma mina tarti. 34:27 Therefore we really learn out two things. 34:29 What are the two things we learn out from lo tishchatu? 34:31 Number one, that you could have two shochtim. 34:33 Even if there are, in other words, I would have thought just, I just think the instinctive understanding of the pasuk is that the prohibition is on one person. 34:42 I can't shacht a mother and the child on the same day. 34:45 קא משמע לן לא תשחטו, plural, even if there are two shochtim, right, Reuven and Shimon, one is shachting the mother, one is shachting the child, the one who shachts the second one ultimately will be liable. 34:57 That's number one. Number two, what does tishchatu teach us? 35:01 That whichever order, whether it's mother and then offspring or offspring then mother, there's going to be liability. 35:06 So rabosai, a very, very, very important drasha, tishchatu, the plurality of it teaches us these two halachos. 35:12 Even if there's more than one shochet, you're liable, and order doesn't matter. 35:16 Doesn't matter, mother offspring, offspring mother. 35:19 Incredible. Let's go back to שחטה ואת בת בתה. 35:23 So rabosai, remember again the machlokes case in the mishna was the following, right? 35:27 So remember everyone agrees, let's go with the simple case. 35:29 Everyone agrees that if it's cow, daughter, granddaughter, what's the halacha? 35:34 How many times are you liable? 35:36 Twice, right? Remember again, the first time you're liable is the first oto ve'es beno was on the daughter, right? 35:41 And the second oto ve'es beno was on the granddaughter. 35:44 What happens if, the machlokes case was, what happens if you shacht cow, granddaughter, daughter? 35:51 The chachamim say you're chayiv once. 35:54 Once, why? 'Cause remember again, shachting of cow, totally fine. 35:59 When you then shacht granddaughter, also totally fine, because oto ve'es beno is on the mother and the offspring, not mother and grand... 36:05 When does the problem occur? 36:06 When you shacht the third cow, which is daughter cow, that's when you're in, that's when you're in, that's when you're liable because now you've done oto ve'es beno, and as we've established, order doesn't matter. 36:16 Sumchus says no, even in the case of cow, granddaughter, daughter, you're going to be chayiv twice. 36:23 Let's analyze this. So the gemara says as follows: אמר ליה אביי לרב יוסף מאי טעמא דסומכוס. 36:28 What is Sumchus's logic? 36:30 What is his logic? 36:31 Sumchus holds that if a person goes ahead and eats two kezeisim of chelev be'elam echad. 36:46 Now rabosai, this is an interesting case. 36:47 So remember chelev is prohibited fat. 36:50 If you go ahead and you eat two kezeisim of chelev be'elam echad. He'elam echad means one lapse of awareness. 36:57 Then what's the halacha? 36:59 You are chayiv two chatas offerings. 37:01 Now Rashi says over here he'elam echad, look at the last of the wide lines on top: שלא נודע לו בינתיים שחטא ובשוגג חייב שתי חטאות והוא הדין נמי דמיחייב באזהרה אחת ובלאו אחד שתי מלקיות. 37:14 Okay, so rabosai, so again, he'elam echad just means one lapse of awareness. 37:19 I did not know what's happening over here. 37:21 So but watch this, but Sumchus holds, if you eat two kezeisim of chelev in one lapse of awareness, you will be chayiv two chatas offerings. 37:33 uvedin hu. Now again, it would seem to be this is the same logic, this we could apply to our case over here. 37:39 You shacht, you shacht cow, granddaughter, mother, right? 37:42 Sorry, or cow, granddaughter, daughter. 37:47 So Sumchus would say, assuming all of this is happening be'elam echad, in one lapse, we look at this almost as one contiguous act. 37:55 If that's the case, then what have you done in one contiguous act? 37:58 You have shachted two mother-daughter combinations. 38:02 So because of that you will be chayiv twice. 38:05 Just like Sumchus says, if you eat two kezeisim of chelev in one lapse of awareness, ultimately again you will be chayiv twice. 38:15 ובדין הוא דלאשמועינן בעלמא. In reality, we should be taught this din of Sumchus, right, ultimately again in this case of chelev. 38:27 This is the better case. 38:27 I'll tell you why. 38:29 The case ultimately again of the mishna is not the ideal case. 38:33 Why is it not the ideal case? 38:34 As we're going to see right now, because it is what we call gufin mechulakin. Gufin mechulakin means independent entities, independent bodies. 38:42 If you want to illustrate Sumchus's principle in a more dramatic fashion, do it here by the kezeisim of chelev. 38:49 That's a better case. 38:51 That's a better case because again, it's all chelev together. 38:54 That makes a lot more sense. 38:55 The gemara says, listen to this: ובדין הוא דלאשמועינן בעלמא. 38:58 We should have really illustrated Sumchus's rule in the case of chelev. 39:02 והאי דקמשמע לן בהא. So why does it illustrate it over here in the case of the animals? 39:07 lehodi'acha kochan derabbanan. To show us the strength of the rabbanan's position. 39:12 What do the rabbanan hold? 39:13 דאף על גב דגופין מחולקין פטרי רבנן. Because even though halacha lema'aseh, even though halacha lema'aseh it's gufin mechulakin. Gufin mechulakin means they're independent entities. 39:23 Each of these is a different cow. 39:25 See, even though they are gufin mechulakin, halacha lema'aseh the rabbanan will still say you're pattur. 39:31 Now again rabosai, when they say you're pattur, remember again it's not totally pattur. 39:34 What, remember according to the rabbanan, what's the case? 39:36 The case remember is where you're shachting cow, granddaughter, daughter. 39:40 According to rabbanan, how many times are you chayiv? 39:43 once. Right? Once. Everybody's going to agree you're going to be chayiv ultimately for the granddaughter daughter combination. 39:48 That's for sure. So od duma, or maybe the other possibility is kasavar Sumchos אכל שני זיתי חלב בהעלם אחד אינו חייב אלא אחת. 39:55 Maybe not. Maybe Sumchos actually holds that when you go ahead and you eat two kezaysim of cheilev in one lapse of awareness, maybe you're only chayiv once. 40:07 You're only chayiv once. 40:07 Vehacha hainu taama and maybe the reason in the Mishnah why Sumchos holds that you are liable twice, right, for oso ves bno in the case even of cow, granddaughter, daughter is why? 40:18 Hovu gufim mecholakim because they are separate independent bodies. 40:23 And because they are separate independent bodies, Rashi says over here שאלידי שתי פרות באו לו שתי מלקיות הללו. 40:30 So Rabosai, you could see, right, you could see that there's a difference in the case of eating two kezaysim of cheilev versus dealing with separate independent cows. 40:38 Maybe it's davka in this case that Sumchos holds that there's liability. 40:41 Amar lei in, yeah, that's true, קסבר אכל שני זיתי חלב בהעלם אחד חייב שתי חטאות. 40:47 So it's true, at the end of the day Sumchos does hold that if you eat two kezaysim of cheilev in one lapse of awareness that ultimately you will be liable to two chatas offerings. 40:56 Mimai? From where do you know? 40:57 So Rabosai, this is actually fascinating. 40:58 Mimai midisnan, listen to this: הזורע כלאים כלאים לוקה. 41:04 If you go ahead and you plant kilayim kilayim you get malkus. 41:08 And Rabosai, I remember again what is kilayim? Kilayim is forbidden mixtures. 41:11 Generally again the biblically paradigmatic case of kilayim is some combination as we'll see in just a moment of wheat, wheat and grapes. 41:20 So but the wording over here is very important. 41:22 If you plant kilayim kilayim you get malkus. 41:26 So the Gemara says, mai loke? 41:28 So what does that mean? 41:28 אילימא לוקה אחת פשיטא? If it says you get malkus once, that's obvious. 41:34 Ve'od mai kilayim kilayim twice? Right? What does that wording mean? 41:39 אלא פשיטא שתי מלקיות. Rather it's obvious that what are we talking about over here? 41:46 We're talking about two sets of malkus. 41:48 That if you plant, if you plant kilayim twice, you get two sets of malkus. 41:53 So the Gemara says okay, bemai askinan? 41:55 Well what's the case? 41:56 Bemai askinan אילימא בזה אחר זה ובשתי התראות? If we're talking about a guy who's planting kilayim and what happens, Rabosai? 42:04 He goes ahead and he does two acts of planting and he gets hasra for both acts. 42:08 Again, so Rabosai, imagine the case, right? 42:10 So Reuven is sitting there planting kilayim. 42:12 He plants it, right, he's ready to plant it the first time and what do we say? 42:15 Reuven, you're not allowed to do that, that's kilayim. 42:17 And he does it anyway, he's chayiv. 42:19 And then what happens? 42:20 He's about to plant the second time and we say again, Reuven, that's kilayim, you're not allowed to do that. 42:26 Obviously if it's two acts and he went ahead and he got hasra for both acts, of course ultimately again there's going to be dual liability. 42:34 We learned that tanina, we learned: Rabosai, listen to this: If you have a nazir who is drinking wine the whole day. 42:45 Now Rabosai, obviously wrong life choice, right? 42:49 Again, if this is your challenge, the nazirite life is probably not for you. 42:55 Right? But lemaise, lemaise, Rabosai, even if you're a nazir sometimes you just have a hard day. 43:01 Right? Sometimes it's just one of those days. 43:04 So the Gemara says as follows: נזיר שהיה שותה יין כל היום אינו חייב אלא אחת. 43:11 So interestingly enough, even though mamash he's drinking the whole day, the whole day, he's only going to be chayiv once. 43:20 So however, אמרו לו אל תשתה אל תשתה והוא שותה. Right? 43:24 Ultimately again, but if we tell him, if we keep on repeating to him, don't drink, don't drink, in other words you give him hasra each time and he drinks, or אל תשתה אל תשתה והוא שותה אל תשתה והוא שותה חייב על כל אחת ואחת. 43:39 He's chayiv for every single act of drinking. 43:41 So Rabosai, so in other words obviously anytime someone is repeating the same prohibition but we warn him in between each act there's going to be individuated liability for each act. 43:54 So obviously if Reuven's planting kilayim, right, individuated is a word, is a word. 43:59 I say if we're going to go ahead, if he's going to plant kilayim each time, each time and he's going to go ahead and, I'm pretty sure it's a word, individuated. 44:10 Yeah, individuated, look it up, look it up. 44:13 Right? So the Gemara says as follows: Rabosai, do you understand what I'm saying? 44:16 If you understand what I'm saying then by definition it's a word. 44:19 Right? So lemaise, lemaise, so same thing over here by kilayim. Halacha lemaise, if he's planting it and we're telling him each time don't plant it, then of course there's going to be liability. 44:31 Ella peshita, so Rabosai, so you don't have to tell me that case. 44:34 In other words, to tell me that every single time he plants it and I tell him not to, he's going to be liable, that's obvious. 44:40 What's the chidush over here? 44:42 Ella peshita... בבת אחת ובהתראה אחת. It must be that what's the case, what's the case? 44:47 The case is where Reuven is planting, is planting kilayim over and over and over. 44:53 All of this is happening behelem echad. 44:55 It's all happening in one lapse of awareness with one hasra'ah and yet he's going to be liable for each and every time. 45:04 So the Gemara says, whose opinion does that reflect? 45:07 Mani? אילימא רבנן דפליגי עליה דסומכוס, if it's the Rabbanan ultimately who go ahead and argue on Sumchus, השתא ומה התם דגופין מחולקין פטרי רבנן הכא לא כל שכן, certainly in our case ultimately again where it's gufin mechulakin, right? 45:22 In our case of the Mishna where you have individual cows and yet again still the Rabbanan are arguing on that case, certainly over here where it's the same act over and over they're going to argue. 45:30 אלא לאו סומכוס היא, rather it must be that it's Sumchus. 45:35 It must be that it's Sumchus and halacha lemaysa again what does Sumchus hold? 45:40 Sumchus holds that halacha lemaysa you could be liable for the same act repeated in the same lapse of lapse of awareness ultimately multiple times. 45:48 I was about to stop, awareness was a little bit middle in the middle of a sentence. 45:50 We'll pick up im yirtzeh Hashem from this machlokes Sumchus and the Rabbanan, we'll finish it up in this sugya by kilayim and then go back to the Mishna. Shkoiach.
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