Transcript Translit עברית
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0:02 All right Chevra-say, good morning, good morning. 0:25 Let us begin. Begin by thanking all of our sponsors for this morning's shiur. 0:30 To thank our Talmud Torah sponsors for the month of אלול הבא עלינו לטובה, the Schoenfeld family for dedicating all of Shimen's drashos this month l'ilui nishmas Mr. 0:40 Heshy Schoenfeld, צבי מאיר בן משה הלוי זכרונו לברכה. May his legacy of living each day b'simcha inspire us to find joy in every day, appreciate the blessings around us, and see the goodness in all that life has to offer. 0:53 Justin and Abigail Rosemore for dedicating all of Shimen's drashos this month in honor of the entire kehilla, wishing the Rosemores incredible hatzlacha in their move to Florida. 1:04 Mi-ratzon she'hizakeh to have a Yom Norah m'or l'avos fillos are answered. 1:07 Leah Sohn for dedicating all of Shimen's drashos this month in recognition of the entire kehilla and the zechus of continued refuah shlema for Ilana bas Esther. 1:16 And Baruch Meir and Hindy Dubin, l'ilui nishmas שרה חנה בת בערל נחום, גרשם בן משה זכרונו לברכה, with tremendous gratitude to Hakadosh Baruch Hu for a year filled of beautiful family simchos. 1:28 May mi-ratzon she-fillos in Elul bring about the ultimate redemption עם עמך משיחא במהרה בימינו אמן. 1:34 Rabbi Kupferman sponsors Meron and Bria Samuel as a refuah shlema for Rav Moshe Chana. 1:39 Our daf yomi sponsors Ayalla and Sarah Steinberg in the zechus of continued help שולמית חנה בת סושה for an ultimate refuah shlema. 1:47 Of course Chevra-say, we dedicate the learning in the zechus of עם ישראל וארץ ישראל, והלואי שיזכה מרצון השם to a ksiva v'chasima tova. 1:53 Boss, with Daf Daled, we have a really, really exciting daf. 1:57 Today's daf is kuf yud aleph 111, we are picking up on kuf yud 110b. 2:02 If it's okay, let's just go back, I just actually want to jump back a few lines, go a little bit backwards, only so that we can begin fresh the sugya of kaveid, the sugya of liver today. 2:14 So we're picking up im yirtzeh Hashem אמר ליה אביי לרב ספרא, which is just about six lines up from before from where we ended up yesterday, which is 2, 4, 6, 8, about 9, 10 lines down from the top. 2:27 Amar, very quickly, we did this already yesterday. 2:31 Amar leh אביי לרב ספרא, ki salakt l'hasam, when you go to Eretz Yisrael, ba-ee minayhu, ask them the following shaila, כבדא מה אסרן ביה? 2:40 What do you guys do with liver? 2:44 What do you do with liver? 2:45 Now, what's the shaila? 2:47 If you look at Rashi again, Rashi says מותר לבשלו בקדירה או אסור מפני שפולט דם ואף על פי שכולו דם אפילו הכי ואחר שפירשו ויצאו הרי הוא דם דאסור. 2:56 So Chevra-say, this is very interesting. 2:59 So remember, I mentioned this yesterday. 3:01 The Gemara is operating under the assumption that liver is blood. 3:05 Liver is congealed blood. 3:06 Now obviously the liver is mutar, right? 3:09 How do we know that the liver is mutar? 3:10 How do we know that? 3:10 Because the Torah doesn't tell us that it's asur. 3:13 The Torah tells us the part of an animal that you're not allowed to. 3:16 The Torah tells us you can't eat cheilev. 3:17 So the Torah never says anything like that regarding liver, and therefore halacha l'maaseh liver is mutar. 3:24 So liver is mutar despite the fact that it's congealed blood and despite the fact that blood is normally asur. 3:30 So where does the shaila come up? 3:32 So we understand that liver is going to be mutar and therefore when blood is in the liver, it's going to be mutar. 3:37 The shaila is what happens if blood comes out of the liver? 3:40 What's the status of that blood? 3:44 Do we say that since it was part of the liver and the liver is mutar, therefore halacha l'maaseh the blood that comes out is mutar as well? 3:49 Or no, when the blood is absorbed in the liver, okay, then it's mutar, but once it comes out, it's asur. 3:55 That's the shaila. So what happened? 3:57 Ki salak, so when he went to Eretz Yisrael, ashkachei l'Rav Zeira. 4:03 He found Rav Zeira, amar leh: אנה שלקי ליה לרבי אמי ואכל. 4:06 I cooked, I cooked liver for Rabbi Ami and he ate it. 4:11 Now again Chevra-say, so what's the idea over here? 4:14 Now the assumption over here is what he says I cooked it, what happens when you cook something? 4:18 So you put the liver in water, so what ends up happening? 4:21 Blood is expelled from the liver and the assumption that the Gemara's making over here is what else happens? 4:26 The liver reabsorbs the blood. 4:28 So what do you see from here? 4:29 That even blood expelled by the liver is going to be mutar. 4:33 So the Gemara says ki asa l'gabeih, amar leh: למאסר נפשו לא קא מיבעיא לי. 4:38 So he said I'm not asking in terms of does the liver asur itself. 4:42 I understand the liver won't asur itself. 4:45 Look at Rashi, לא מיבעיא לי דפשיטא ליה דכיון דטרודי הוא לפלוט ולהוציא כל שעה לא בלע. 4:50 Now again Chevra-say, that's for reason that we've spoken about already a number of times. 4:54 So he says I'm not concerned that when you cook a liver in water, so obviously here's what's going to happen. 4:59 Liver is going to expel blood. 5:01 I'm not worried about the liver re-absorbing its own blood. 5:04 Why not? This has nothing to do with liver. 5:06 What does this have to do with? 5:08 The halachic assumption, the mechanistic, I'd say the halachic mechanistic assumption is that when something is quote unquote busy expelling, it cannot absorb. 5:17 So therefore halacha l'maaseh the liver is expelling blood when it's being cooked in water, or being cooked on a liquid medium. 5:23 I'm not worried about it re-absorbing. 5:25 What's my shayla? כי קא מיבעיא לי למצר חברתא. 5:28 What happens if you're cooking something else in the pot together with the liver? 5:32 So I have a piece of liver, and I have a piece of steak, so now what's happening over here? 5:36 You're cooking the liver, the blood is being expelled from the liver. 5:39 And again, rabosai, so just so you understand, you might be thinking to yourself, well there could be blood expelled by any piece of meat, so what's the shayla? 5:47 So remember this is very different, because since in the eyes of Chazal liver is blood, it's blood and it's muttar to eat. 5:55 So the shayla is, is it only muttar to eat when the blood is in the liver, or ultimately again it's muttar to eat even when the blood is expelled from the liver? 6:03 That stands in contrast distinction to other pieces of meat, because in other pieces of meat, you have a piece of meat and there's blood absorbed in that meat, you're not allowed to eat that blood, right? 6:11 So in other words, that blood is always assur absorbed, expelled. 6:15 So he said, I'm not worried about the liver re-absorbing its own blood. 6:18 My shayla is you're cooking another piece of meat in the pot with the liver, what's the impact of expelled liver blood on that other piece of meat? 6:27 So the Gemara says, I don't understand, Mai shta? 6:30 למצר נפשה לא מיבעיא לך. So what? Let's take a step back. 6:33 Why are you not concerned about the liver re-absorbing its own blood? 6:39 Why why are you not absorbed about that? 6:41 I'm sorry, why why are you not concerned about that? 6:45 Disnan: eina ne'eseres, because we learned in the Mishna, or I learned in the braisa, sorry, that ultimately again the liver's not, the liver doesn't prohibit itself for the reason we just mentioned before, that since the liver is busy expelling blood, it's not 6:58 going to absorb anything. 6:59 So I don't understand, למצר חברתא נמי לא תיבעיא לך. 7:03 So what? You don't have to be concerned about the liver assuring its friends. 7:06 Why not? Rabosai, here we go, Disnan: הכבד אוסרת ואינה נאסרת. 7:13 Ultimately again, the liver has the ability to assur something else, but it itself does not become assur. 7:22 Why? מפני שהיא פולטת ואינה בולעת. So seems pretty explicit. 7:25 So when you're cooking a liver in a pot with something else, the liver is not going to go ahead and prohibit itself. 7:31 Why not? Because the liver is busy expelling, therefore it's not going to absorb. 7:37 However, if you're cooking another piece of meat in the pot with that liver, that second piece of meat absolutely becomes assur. 7:46 Why? Because it absorbs the expelled blood from the liver. 7:50 So seems pretty explicit, rabosai. 7:51 Point the Gemara is making over here is, both of these points seem to be pretty explicit. 7:55 A liver is not going to be, become prohibited from its own expelled blood, because since it's busy expelling, it's not going to re-absorb. 8:03 But another piece of meat cooked in the pot with the liver will absolutely become assur, because it absorbs the expelled blood. 8:09 To which the Gemara says, well wait one second. 8:11 Amar lei, is it? Maybe not. 8:13 Dilma hasam b'kaveda d'issura? Maybe that's talking about the liver of a non-kosher animal. 8:18 Maybe that's what's happening over there. 8:20 Top of kuf yud aleph, U'mishum shamnuso. And we have to be concerned because of the fat. 8:26 Now what does that mean? 8:27 Take a look at Rashi, rabosai, Mishum shamnuso, top Rashi kuf yud aleph. 8:35 קאמר דאוסרת את התבשיל המתבשל עמה לפי שבלע מן הטרפה ואינה נאסרת על שם היתר היא. In other words, maybe the issue over here is that we're talking about a liver of a non-kosher animal, in which case it's not per se the liver keit that's problematic, but rather what is it? 8:50 It's the treifa keit that's problematic. 8:53 In other words, maybe essentially what you're doing over here in this case is you're cooking a non-kosher meat with a piece of kosher meat. 8:58 What happens when you cook a non-kosher meat with a piece of kosher meat? 9:00 It's assur. Why? Because it's absorbing, it's absorbing the treif keit of the meat. 9:06 But that doesn't necessarily go ahead and help us understand about a liver case. 9:12 Now if you look at the end of this Rashi, this Rashi is very important. 9:16 Let's read the rest of it. 9:17 He says, קאמר דאוסרת את התבשיל המתבשל עמה לפי שבלע מן הטרפה ואינה נאסרת על שם היתר היא ובשלה עם טרפה אינה נאסרת לפי שטרודה לפלוט כל שעה ואינה בולעת כלום אבל דמה דנפיק מינה דכשרה מיבעיא לי. So again, maybe we're talking about over here, like we just mentioned before, the liver of a treifa animal. 9:38 And the reason why if you cook another piece of meat with that is because of the treifa keit of the treifa piece. 9:44 But doesn't necessarily address the liver piece. 9:47 But listen to this: אבל דמה דנפיק מינה דכשרה מיבעיא לי. 9:50 So really our core question is, you cook a kosher liver with a kosher piece of meat. 9:57 אי אסר אחריני אי לא. So the shayla... 10:00 The shaila is: Does the liver have the ability to impact the other piece of meat? 10:06 What's the shaila? דאיכא למימר דמא דהיתרא הוא שרי שהרי עיקרא דם וכל זמן שלא פירש פשיטא דמותר וכי פירש מיבעיא לי מאי. 10:16 So rebbeim, this is our tension. 10:18 Our tension once again is the Gemara says not resolved. 10:20 Liver is blood. Obviously when the blood is in the liver, totally mutar. 10:25 When it comes out of the liver, what's the status? 10:30 What's the status? So again Gemara says משום דמא מאי כי הדר סליק. 10:33 So rebbeim, second line on 111a, קי\"ד עמוד א, קי\"א עמוד א, ki hadar salik when he went back to Eretz Yisrael, ashkeichei le'Rabbi Zreika. 10:43 He found Rabbi Zreika, amar lei, האי נמי לא תיבעי לך. 10:46 The truth is, this isn't a shaila either. 10:48 This isn't a shaila either. 10:51 Why not? The Gemara says דאנא וינאי בריה דרבי אמי איקלן לבי רבי יהודה בריה דרבי שמעון בן פזי. 11:01 Listen to this, rebbeim. 11:02 So he says as follows. 11:04 So Rabbi Zreika said as follows. 11:05 He said, I, Rabbi Zreika, and Yanai, the son of Rabbi Ami, went to the house of Rabbi Yehuda, the son of Rabbi Shimon ben Pazi. 11:13 And what happened? Listen to this. 11:17 וקריבה ליה קניא בקופא. So this is a fascinating thing to serve guests. 11:22 So he said essentially they served us a trachea with all of its attached pieces. 11:30 It's like a family bucket, you know, like, you know, like, right, the, right, so the trachea with all of the attached pieces. 11:37 Now rebbeim, now watch this. 11:38 What are all the attached pieces? 11:39 This is fascinating. So kanya bekupa, Rashi says over here, Hakana says the trachea, עם כל המחובר לו namely hareia, the lungs, halev, the heart, ve'hakaveid, and the liver, ve'kulan nitbashli yachad. 11:55 Now again there's a whole discussion about whether or not the heart was part of this family bucket or not. 12:01 Like I said, for our purposes actually we don't really... 12:04 I was going to say we don't care about the heart, but a Yid can never say those words. 12:08 A Yid can never say those words. 12:10 Rachmana liba ba'ei. Hakadosh Baruch Hu wants hearts more than anything. 12:13 I mean for our purposes for the kashrus issue over here, the presence of the heart is actually not what we're looking at. 12:18 What are we looking at over here? 12:19 The liver. So essentially you have to understand what's happened over here. 12:23 So they went to the house, they went to the house of Yehuda, the son of Rabbi Shimon ben Pazi. 12:28 And now in that house they cooked up the trachea with all of the attached, with all of the attached pieces. 12:35 So they cooked the trachea together with the lungs together with the liver. 12:40 So essentially rebbeim, what is this a case of? 12:42 This is a case of cooking liver with other pieces of meat and they served this. 12:48 What does this clearly indicate? 12:50 What... now again rebbeim, what happens when you cook liver? 12:52 What happens? It expels blood. 12:54 And what happens with the other pieces that are there? 12:56 They absorb the blood. 12:57 So what do you see from here? 12:59 That the expelled blood of the liver is not halachically problematic. 13:03 So the Gemara says מתקיף לה רב אשי ואיתימא רבי שמעון בר מייזורקוניא ודילמא פי קנה דחוץ לקדירה הוה. 13:13 So this is very interesting. 13:14 That's not necessarily a raya because maybe the way they cook this was, when you cook up this, this concoction, you leave the top of the trachea outside of the pot. 13:23 So apparently if you do this what ends up happening? 13:26 The blood is pumped out from the top of the trachea into the pot, into the pot. 13:31 So maybe in this case over here, like I... 13:33 rebbeim, that's what I'm saying. 13:33 They're cooking everything literally while it's still attached. 13:37 It's not the pshat that they're just throwing a, it's not a cholent that they're just throwing a whole bunch of stuff in here. 13:42 This is literally like they have the trachea with all of the attached lungs, with the attached heart, with... 13:47 leaving the heart aside, with the attached liver, and they... 13:50 it's all connected. So maybe if you leave the top of the trachea outside of the pot, the blood is actually not pumped into the pot but rather the blood is pumped out of the pot. 13:59 Inami, other possibility is מחלט הוה חליט ליה מעיקרא. 14:03 Maybe they scalded the liver to begin with. 14:06 Now again rebbeim, this is very interesting. 14:07 If you take a look at Rashi, this is Rashi right across. 14:11 Go to the right. 14:14 אינמי מחלט הוה חליט ליה מעיקרא ואישבשל דמו בתוכו כדי שלא יפלוט עוד כשבשל עם האחר עם האחר ודמו המובלע בתוכו מותר כל זמן שלא יצא. So rebbeim, so now the Gemara is introducing us to something else. 14:23 So apparently if you scald liver... 14:29 now again we'll discuss scald with what... 14:31 but if you scald liver what that does is it traps the blood on the inside. 14:36 So the Gemara says maybe the case over here was where before they cooked everything together they scalded the liver. 14:44 That traps the blood on the inside. 14:46 Now again rebbeim, once again. 14:47 What's unique about the liver? 14:49 What's unique about the liver? 14:50 It's all blood and it's mutar. 14:52 So remember blood inside the liver is never going to be problematic. 14:57 It's blood outside... from the Gemara's perspective now, it's blood outside. 15:00 the liver that ultimately again as the Gemara's just saying, this case is not a Ra'aya, because either A, they left the top of the trachea outside of the pot, so all of the blood pumped out, out of the pot, or 15:10 they pre-scalded the liver, in which case again, there was no expulsion of blood. 15:17 כי הא דרב הונא חליט ליה בחלא ורב נחמן חלט ליה ברותחין because what's there were Rabonim who did this, that before they would cook the liver with anything else, what would they do? 15:24 They would scald it. 15:24 So Rav Huna would scald it in vinegar, and Rabosai, what's the chap with vinegar? 15:29 Now that's very interesting. 15:30 Rashi says חלטיה בחלא צמצמו בחומץ שהחומץ צמצמו ושוב אינה פולט עולמית. So this is very interesting. 15:38 What does vinegar do? 15:39 Vinegar causes things like to contract or to shrink. 15:43 So halacha l'maiseh he says that if you scald it with vinegar, it causes the liver to contract, prevents blood expulsion. 15:53 Rav Nachman would just do it in regular water. 15:55 Point over here is that halacha l'maiseh, scalding it keeps the blood on the inside. 16:01 So therefore, Rabosai, we still have not answered our question, right? 16:04 So here's what I know. 16:05 I know is that when I cook liver in water, even though the liver expels blood, it's not a problem. 16:11 Why? Because while the liver is busy expelling, it's not absorbing. 16:14 What's my shaila? My shaila still is I have another piece of meat in the pot with that liver. 16:19 What's the impact of expelled liver blood on that other piece of pot? 16:24 That piece, that piece is still outstanding. 16:26 Okay, וסבר רב פפא קמיה דרבא למימר חלא אסיר. Okay, so again, Rabosai, here's what's interesting. 16:33 Now the Gemara jumps to just say one second, one second, you're going to scald the liver in vinegar, which causes the liver to contract and almost like seals in the blood. 16:42 What's the status of that vinegar? 16:45 What's the status of that vinegar? 16:47 So Rav Pappa wanted to say in front of Rava, the vinegar is assur. 16:50 Look at Rashi. Rashi pretty much right across: חלא אסיר אותו חומץ שצמת בו אסיר דקסבר מפלט מפליט מקצת מן הדם. 16:59 So, oh that blood, that blood. 17:01 In other words, when you scald the liver in vinegar, that vinegar is going to become assur. 17:06 Why? Because even though the vinegar is sealing in the blood, there is definitely still some blood expulsion. 17:13 Now again, Rabosai, now what's interesting about that statement? 17:15 What's interesting about that statement is that halacha l'maiseh, what do you see from here? 17:18 That expelled blood from the liver is problematic. 17:22 Because you're saying some of the blood gets into the vinegar, and therefore the vinegar is going to be assur. 17:27 אמר ליה אי חלא אסיר איהו נמי נמי אסיר. But one second, let to again, Rabosai, we keep kind of getting stuck in this circle a little bit. 17:34 If the vinegar is going to be assur, because halacha l'maiseh, the vinegar has expelled liver blood, that means expelled liver blood is assur. 17:44 If expelled liver blood is assur, then the liver itself ultimately should become assur as well. 17:51 The Gemara says: אלא חלא אי אסיר איהו נמי אסיר כי היכי דפליט הדר בלע. 17:56 Because ultimately, again, in the way ultimately again that it expels blood, it also goes ahead and absorbs it. 18:05 Okay, fine. So the Gemara, so Rav Bar Shva, listen to this story. 18:26 So Rav Bar Shva, that's his name. 18:29 איקלע לבי רב נחמן. So they went to serve Rav Nachman, אייתו ליה כבדא שליקא ולא אכל. 18:35 It's very interesting. So they brought him cooked liver and he wouldn't eat it. 18:38 He wouldn't eat it. 18:39 Now again, Rabosai, Rashi points out over here, right, cooked just means again with a liquid medium. 18:44 So he wouldn't eat it. 18:45 Now again, b'pashitus, why wouldn't he eat it? 18:49 So it seems to be that Rav Bar Shva was concerned that when the liver expels its blood into the water, it then goes ahead and reabsorbs that blood later on. 18:58 אמרו ליה בר בי רב דלגבך לא אכל ומנהו רב בר שבא. So they told Rav Nachman, they told Rav Nachman, there is a young talmid chacham who is here, and ultimately again, he's not going ahead and eating what we served him. 19:13 What'd Rav Nachman say? Rav Nachman said: Gamu l'Shva. 19:15 Force-feed Shva. So interestingly enough, his name is not Shva, that's his father's name. 19:21 But Rav Nachman almost said it like, Rabosai, it almost seems a little bit like what's the pshat, force-feed him? 19:30 So Rabosai, this is tremendous. 19:31 Essentially, Rav Nachman is saying to this young talmid chacham, essentially is, buddy, who do you think you are? 19:38 Right? I'm Rav Nachman. If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for you. 19:42 So Rabosai, so he says to him, force-feed him. 19:44 Now obviously, did they force-feed, did they force-feed Rav Bar Shva? 19:49 I would assume not. 19:50 I would assume not. 19:51 But the point that Rav Nachman was making, Rabosai, is that halacha l'maiseh, something like this is dangerous. 19:57 Because if Rav Nachman is paskening a certain way, Rav Nachman is a ranking sage. 20:01 And Rav Bar Shva was much younger, you have the ability to create machlokas. 20:06 So therefore Rav Nachman takes a little bit of a stronger stand, force-feed this guy, make him eat, make him eat the liver that was cooked in order to avoid any future machlokas, which the Gemara says Ki Tannaye. 20:19 And again I'll say by the way, happens to be it's also a good Mussar Haskel about how to conduct ourselves, you know, sometimes again we may find ourselves in situations where perhaps personally I act a little differently, I conduct myself a 20:32 little bit differently, always good to be humble. 20:35 Always good to be humble and be careful that ultimately again one's personal practices do not in any way become offensive or an affront to their host or to the area in which they find themselves. 20:45 The Gemara says Ki Tannaye. 20:47 In reality this whole thing is a machlokas Tannaim. 20:52 Here we go. Rabbi Eliezer אומר הכבד אוסרת ואינה נאסרת מפני שפולטת ואינה בולעת. 20:55 Rabosai, the Gemara says you're right, this whole thing is machlokas Tannaim. Rabbi Eliezer says that liver, when you cook liver, so ultimately again liver, let's go backwards, it does not become assur. 21:08 Why does—well, what liver—let me say it differently. 21:10 Liver when you're cooking with another piece of meat will assur the other piece of meat. 21:15 Why? Because ultimately it's expelling blood. 21:17 And when it expels blood, the other piece of meat goes ahead and or the other items in the pot absorb the blood. 21:23 Therefore liver could assur something else. 21:27 However ve'einah ne'eseres, but liver itself does not become assur through its own expelled blood. 21:33 Why not? מפני שפולטת ואינה בולעת, because halacha lemaisa it is busy expelling and because it's busy expelling therefore what? 21:42 It does not absorb. 21:45 That's Rabbi Eliezer. רבי ישמעאל בנו של רבי יוחנן בן ברוקא אומר מטובלת אוסרת ונאסרת שלוקה אוסרת ונאסרת. So watch this. 21:53 Rabbi Yochanan—sorry, Rabbi Yishmael goes through a whole list over here. 21:57 If halacha lemaisa the liver is seasoned, so Rashi points out over here, if it's seasoned ultimately it softens the liver. 22:06 If that's the case oseres, obviously when it expels blood it'll assur anything else in the pot vene'eseres, and it itself becomes assur as well because it will reabsorb its own blood. 22:18 Sheluka, similarly again if you go ahead and you cook the liver oseres vene'eseres. 22:25 It'll assur anything else in the pot and it'll also reabsorb its own blood and will become assur. 22:32 So Rabosai, here it is, here it is, a fundamental machlokas Tannaim. 22:36 What happens with expelled liver blood? 22:39 Everybody agrees that other items in the pot with that liver that's being cooked, as the liver expels its blood, everyone agrees that halacha lemaisa those other items will become assur. 22:50 The shaylah is what about the liver itself? 22:53 Will the liver itself become assur or not? 22:56 Fundamental machlokas. Okay, incredible. 22:59 רבה בר רב הונא ikla to the house of רבה בר רב נחמן. רבה בר רב הונא went to the house of רבה בר רב נחמן. אייתו לקמיה תלת סאוי דחיי. 23:10 They brought before him tlas savei dachay. 23:16 Now dachay Rabosai are spleens—sorry, sorry, bread. 23:19 Rashi says tlas savei dachay, שלוש סאין פת נקיה פניה טוחין בשמן ודבש. 23:26 So listen to this. 23:27 So רבה בר רב הונא went to the house of רבה בר רב נחמן. 23:32 They brought out tlas savei dachay of beautiful bread, fine, fine bread, like high quality bread. 23:38 So Rabosai, this is great. 23:39 He said to them מי הוה ידעיתו דאתינא? 23:42 Did you know that I was coming? 23:44 So רבה בר רב הונא was like very, very honored, right? 23:49 Wow, you heard that I was coming, you prepared such beautiful bread, this is great. 23:55 They said to him מי עדיפת לן מיניה דכתיב וקראת לשבת עונג? 23:58 So they said to him, sorry buddy, it's not for you, it's for Shabbos. 24:04 It's for Shabbos. So Rabosai, so incredible. 24:06 Rabosai, by the way, let's take a step back for just a second. 24:09 Right, remember again Rabosai, we had this Gemara, so why not just let it go? 24:13 Why not just say, \"Sha, yes, of course, or so happy you're here\"? 24:16 Rabosai, remember again we had this, this was the Gneivas Da'as sugya, right? 24:20 Like three weeks ago Sunday. 24:22 The Gneivas Da'as sugya, we went through all of this. 24:24 The Gemara said where again you have to be careful not to engage in misleading practices. 24:28 They did not make this for רבה בר רב הונא, they ultimately made it for Shabbos Kodesh. 24:33 Okay, אדהכי אשכח ההוא כבדא דהוה בי סימפונא דבליע דמא. So listen to this. 24:43 Okay, as they were having this whole conversation, so obviously they're preparing for Shabbos. 24:46 They prepared a liver and רבה בר רב הונא found in the liver that there was a liver that had simfona—Rabosai, literally means like a vessel or an artery—but for our purposes what it means is he found a pocket of blood. 24:59 Now right now again... 25:00 It was pooled pooled liquid blood inside of the liver. 25:06 That's what he found in there. 25:07 So אמר להו אמאי עבידתו הכי. So he said to them, \"Whoa, guys, why why are you preparing a liver like this?\" Rashi says over here amai avidtu hachi. 25:16 It's literally right across from Rashi. 25:18 אף על פי שדם הנבלע בו היתר הוא מיהו דם הכונס בסימפונוס דם הוא. So this is very interesting. 25:23 Rav Abba bar Avuna wants to make the following distinction: It's one thing to say that blood, that liver itself, which is blood and blood in the liver is fine, but pooled liver blood should really be extracted. 25:37 Right? In other words, there's no there's no hetter to eat that. 25:40 In other words, to look at the liver as congealed blood and to eat that is fine, but if you have a pocket of actual collected, you know, liquefied blood, that should really be drained before you eat it. 25:54 Amru lei, so they said to Rav Abba bar Avuna, Rav Abba bar Avuna, heichi navid? 25:59 So I don't understand, what what what should we be doing differently? 26:02 Amar lehu, here's what you should do, rabosai, here it is, here it is. 26:05 Here's how you should prepare the liver. 26:07 Karu shasi va-erev. Go ahead and cut it in a criss-cross fashion. 26:13 Ve-chituchei lesasa, and ultimately again roast it. 26:15 And when you roast it, have the incision facing down. 26:19 What does that do? 26:20 What does that do? 26:21 That allows ultimately again for all of the blood to seep out. 26:25 So rabosai, this is quite fascinating. 26:26 So here it is. 26:27 So he said if you want to know how I think you should prepare liver, cut it, criss-cross, shasi va-erev, and have the incision part face down, this way the blood all drains out. 26:36 Incredible. Rashi says over here חיתוכא לתחתא חיתוכא למטה כשנתנוה בתנור לצלות כדי שיזוב הדם ויצא. 26:44 So when you put it in the oven to roast it, have the incision facing down, this way halacha lema'aseh all of the blood drains out. 26:54 Incredible. Vahanei mili kavda. Now again rabosai, that's true for a liver. 26:57 That's true for a liver. 26:59 אבל טחלא שומנא בעלמא. But also when it comes to the spleen, we're not really worried about absorbed blood in the spleen because that which goes ahead and comes out of the spleen is really considered to be shumana, it's really considered to be fat. 27:16 Incredible. Rashi says over here דבעי קריעה בכבדא דמשדי דם כנוס לתוכה אבל טחלא אין בה דם ואפילו כדי שרת. 27:22 So rabosai, this is a very important point. 27:23 The Gemara is suggesting as follows: If you want to cook spleen, if you want to cook spleen, you could just throw spleen right into the cup, into the cup, into the pot. 27:31 We're not worried about absorbed blood. 27:34 Liver is where we come up with an issue of of collected blood. 27:40 And that's why again rabosai, here it is by the way, and we'll talk about liver preparation halacha lema'aseh, how do you prepare liver? 27:44 But ultimately again the way that liver is going to be prepared is go ahead and cut it shasi va-erev and put the incision face down when being roasted and allow the blood to drain out that way. 27:57 So the Gemara says כי הא דשמואל עבדי ליה תבשילא דטחלא ביומא דעביד נילזא. 28:03 Shmuel used to make for himself a spleen dish. 28:06 A spleen dish. Okay, sounds delicious. 28:09 On a day that he would do bloodletting. 28:11 So apparently that was good for you. 28:13 Itmar, and then the Gemara raises an associated issue over here. 28:17 So again rabosai, just to point out, we have not yet resolved, all we know is we have a machlokes tanna'im about what is the impact of expelled liver blood. 28:25 So we haven't resolved that. 28:26 That's still outstanding, as well as the proper way in which to prepare liver so that any type of pooled blood inside of the liver will be taken out. 28:36 So those are two still two outstanding issues. 28:39 The Gemara jumps to to an associated issue. 28:41 The Gemara says איתמר כבדא עלוי בשרא שרי. 28:45 So again rabosai, here's the following case. 28:46 Imagine for for a moment you're roasting food on a spit. 28:52 On a spit. So what do you have on the spit? 28:54 You have liver and a piece of meat. 28:57 So the Gemara says kavra ilui bisra, if the liver is on top and the meat is on the bottom, sharei. 29:10 That's fine. Why? Because again even though the liver is going to emit, going to expel a fair amount of blood, dama mishrak sharik. 29:17 Ultimately again we assume that the blood just slides off the meat. 29:20 So in other words the blood will come out of the liver, slide down the meat, but it won't get collected in the meat. 29:25 On the other hand, kichla ilui bisra, kichla if you have an udder on top of the spit and a piece of meat below it, that's actually going to be problematic. 29:36 Why? Assur. Mai ta'ama? Chalav seruchei masrich. Because ultimately again milk clings. 29:41 Milk milk clings. Because again rabosai, so therefore the milk comes out of the udder, even though again remember, milk in an udder is what kind of milk? 29:48 What kind of milk? 29:50 Really mide'oraisa totally muttar. 29:51 It's just derabbanan it's assur, but nevertheless milk clings. 29:54 Therefore it'll be assur. 29:54 Rav Dimi of Nehardea masni ipecha. 29:57 Rav Dimi of Nehardea, he went ahead and he said just the... 30:01 the opposite. כחלא עילוי בישרא שרי. If the udder is on top and the meat is below, again rabosai, remember, they're not sitting on each other. 30:09 They're both spitted, right? 30:11 They're both spitted, right? 30:13 They're both on the same spit, but if the udder is above and the meat is below, shari, that's fine. 30:19 Why? Mai taima? Chalav sh'chuta d'Rabbanan. Because again, what are we talking about over here? 30:22 Right? At most, the milk absorbed in the udder is d'Rabbanan, therefore it's not a problem. 30:27 Kavda iluy bisra, but if the liver is on top of the meat, assur. 30:30 That's going to be problematic. 30:33 Why? Because dam d'Oraisa. Because again, rabosai, remember again, the blood that comes out of the liver, that's dam. 30:38 So rabosai, first of all, the Gemara is clearly of the opinion that expelled liver blood is absolutely problematic and that is dam. 30:45 In other words, when the blood is inside the liver, that might be fine, right? 30:49 But certainly once it's expelled, that's called dam. 30:52 Therefore again, if you go out and you put the liver on top of the meat on the spit, it's going to be assur. Darshei Mareimar, Mareimar said, hilchosa de-halacha is בין כבדא ובין כחלא תותי בשרא שרי עילויי בשרא דיעבד אין לכתחילה לא. 31:06 So rabosai, here's the halacha and this is the halacha l'maiseh. 31:08 The truth is really ideally, if you're cooking, if you're cooking up, if you're roasting a piece of meat with either liver or an udder and they're both on the same spit, put the udder and the liver below the meat. 31:20 That's ideally, right? L'chatchila. B'di'eved, if you put the udder or the liver on top of the meat, on top of the spit, right? 31:29 So that therefore again the blood of the liver is flowing down or the milk of the udder is flowing down, b'di'eved, it's muttar. B'di'eved it's muttar. 31:38 Why? And rabosai, what's the logic? 31:39 Because since gravity is doing its part and there's no bishul, there's no liquid medium over here, the assumption is that the milk is going to glide over the milk is going to glide over the meat, the blood is going to 31:49 glide over the meat and therefore everything remains muttar. 31:51 Interesting. But again l'chatchila, if you are roasting meat, udder or liver together with meat, put the udder or the liver beneath the meat. 32:04 Incredible. רב אשי איקלע לבי רמי בר אבא. Rav Ashi went to the house of Rami bar Abba. 32:09 Sorry, sorry. Rav Ashi, sorry, Rav Ashi רב אשי איקלע לבי רמי בר אבא חמוה. 32:15 So Rav Ashi went to the house of Rami bar Abba chamucha. Chazya l'brei, so he saw his son, de-Rami bar Abba, the son of Rami bar Abba, d'ka ambeish, דקא שפיט כבדא עילויי בישרא. 32:28 He was he was putting meat on a spit and he put the liver on top of the meat. 32:35 Amar, he said, כמה יהיר האי מרבנן. 32:38 So what what what an arrogant young talmid chacham? 32:41 Why are you putting the liver on top of the meat? 32:45 אימר דאמרי רבנן דיעבד לכתחילה מי אמרי? We just said. 32:48 Okay. In other words, we just said b'di'eved if you put the liver on top of the meat, if you spitted it that way, then ein hachi nami it's muttar b'di'eved. 32:55 But l'chatchila, why is he putting the liver on top on the top part of the spit on top of the meat? 33:01 Okay, gives him mussar. V'ee ika bedugi. 33:06 Now rabosai, it's very interesting. 33:07 Now all of this is assuming that how is this spit situated? 33:11 The spit is situated in an oven and therefore all of the juices that come down are absorbed into the fire. 33:16 However, if there's a bedugi, what is a bedugi? 33:19 A bedugi essentially is like a pan, right? 33:22 Ultimately again, a pan that that is collecting the juices. 33:28 V'ee ika bedugi, בישרא עילויי כבדא נמי אסור. But ultimately again, if there is this bedugi, then ultimately again, Rashi says over here בידוגי שנותנין כלי לקבל השומן כדרך שאנו עושים לאווזין ונקרא בידוגי. 33:42 So it's literally like like a pan beneath the spit to go ahead and collect the juices. 33:49 V'ee ika bedugi, בישרא עילויי כבדא נמי אסור. Then even if the meat is on top of the spit, it's still going to be assur. 33:55 Why? The Gemara says ומאי שנא מדמא דבישרא? 33:57 Why should this be any different ultimately again than the blood of the meat? 34:02 דמא דבישרא שכין דמא דכבדא קפי. Because rabosai, here's the difference. 34:05 So apparently here there is a fundamental difference that general blood ultimately settles to the bottom, but apparently liver blood tends to go ahead and float to the top. 34:16 So because of that, the issue is if there is a pan, then even if the meat is below, ultimately again it goes and absorbs. 34:23 Okay, incredible. So Amar Nachman. 34:25 So rabosai, so this is not the end of the liver sugya, but the liver sugya is paused over here. 34:31 Remember what what we still don't know when it comes to liver is how does one actually prepare liver for use? 34:37 How, in other words halacha l'maiseh working with the idea that liver itself is blood, is congealed blood, how do we halachically prepare liver for use? 34:46 The last thing that the Gemara seemed to indicate was the statement of Rava who said kordeh shasi v'areiv, cut it crisscross, roast it, incision down allowing the blood to seep out. 34:59 Okay, so that's what we had. 35:00 The shaila is what happens halacha l'ma'aseh with expelled liver blood? 35:05 Is expelled liver blood problematic, not problematic? 35:08 That's machlokes amora'im. So those two pieces of information are still open-ended. 35:12 Im yirtzeh Hashem we'll resolve that if we have a few minutes today, good, if not we'll resolve it tomorrow im yirtzeh Hashem. 35:17 But now we're just transitioning for a moment. 35:19 אמר רב נחמן אמר שמואל סכין ששחט בה אסור לחתוך בה רותח. Most interesting halacha. 35:24 A shechita knife, a shechita knife you should not use to cut a piece of hot meat. 35:29 So I have a shechita knife and now I have a steak for dinner. 35:32 The Gemara says, Shmuel says, you should not use the shechita knife to cut hot meat. 35:38 Now why, why is that? 35:40 Why is that? So the Gemara says over here, look at Rashi: סכין ששחט בה אידי דבית השחיטה רותח בלע סכין מן הדם ואסור לחתוך בה רותח מפני שחוזר ופולט בו. 35:48 So what are we concerned about? 35:52 The Gemara always operates with the assumption that beit hashechita roteiach. 35:56 The neck when you shecht the animal is hot, which means that when you do shechita, the area is hot, which means that the knife absorbs from the blood of shechita. 36:04 If you then cut a hot piece of meat with that same knife, what happens? 36:09 What happens? That which goes in must come out, and therefore the absorbed blood from the shechita will come out in my piece of hot meat and assur the piece of hot meat. 36:21 Okay, so now, however, again what happens if I use my shechita knife to cut a cold piece of meat, right, or a cold piece of cheese for that matter? 36:32 אמר ליה בעי הדחה ואמר ליה לא בעי הדחה. So some say the cut item will require a wiping down, just like a, you know, just an external wiping down, this way again to remove any type of residue or moisture or, you know, shmutz. 36:46 Others say it doesn't require it. 36:48 Okay. אמר רב יהודה אמר שמואל כרא שמלח בה בשר אסור לאכול בה רותח. So Shmuel said like this: If you have a plate, now again, watch this, you have a plate that you salted meat on that plate. 37:02 So the halacha is, you now, when you salt meat what happens? 37:05 What comes out? Blood. 37:07 So Shmuel is operating under the assumption that if you salt meat on a plate, what ends up happening is that plate absorbs blood. 37:15 So what can't I do now? 37:17 אסור לאכול בה רותח. I can't put a hot piece of meat on that plate. 37:23 Why not? Because halacha l'ma'aseh then that hot piece of meat will, will absorb the blood that was absorbed into that plate beforehand. 37:33 U'shmuel l'taameih Shmuel says דאמר שמואל מליח הרי הוא כרותח וכבוש הרי הוא כמבושל. 37:38 Because Shmuel's of the opinion, and this is actually very interesting, we've seen this reference before, maliach harei ke'roteiach, that when you salt something, salting is the halachic equivalent of roasting and ultimately again pickling something, kavush means allowing something to go under pickling 37:53 but allowing something to remain steeped in liquid for a prolonged amount of time has the status of bishul. 38:00 Therefore, according to Shmuel, if you go ahead and halacha l'ma'aseh you go ahead and you salt a piece of meat on a plate, that's as if you've cooked the meat on that plate. 38:10 The blood therefore gets cooked into the plate itself. 38:12 When I then go ahead and put a hot piece of meat on that same plate, that hot piece of meat extracts the absorptions, and therefore the meat is going to have blood absorptions which will assur the meat. 38:23 כי אתא רבין אמר רבי יוחנן מליח אינו כרותח וכבוש אינו כמבושל. Okay, so the Gemara just says by the way not everybody agrees with this. 38:29 Ravin comes in Rabbi Yochanan and says no, salting is not like roasting and ultimately again steeping in liquid for a prolonged amount of time is not like mevushal. Amar Abaye Abaye said ha de'Ravin leita. 38:42 Ravin's statement is untrue. 38:45 Why? דהא האי פינכא דהוה בי רבי אמי. So ultimately this pincha. 38:49 Now what's, what's a pincha? 38:51 Rashi says over here כרא של חרס שאין לה תקנה בהגעלה. 38:56 So pincha is a, is an earthenware utensil. 38:59 דהא האי פינכא דהוה בי רבי אמי דמלח ביה בשרא ותבריה. There was this earthenware utensil that they had in the house of Rabbi Ammi and what happened? 39:06 They had salted meat on it and after they salted meat on it what did they do? 39:10 They broke it. They smashed it. 39:12 Why did they smash it? 39:14 Because since by salting meat on it what happened over here? 39:16 What happened? It absorbed blood. 39:18 Earthenware cannot be kashered. 39:20 So what, so they were concerned that if now I have an earthenware vessel that has absorbed blood what may end up inadvertently happening? 39:28 We may end up putting a hot piece of meat on it and if that's the case halacha l'ma'aseh it could absorb something prohibited. 39:35 Michdi so let's analyze this. 39:39 מכדי רבי אמי תלמידיה דרבי יוחנן הוה. So Rabbi Ammi was a student of Rabbi Yochanan. 39:43 Mai taama tavrei? So why did he go ahead and break it? 39:46 לאו משום דשמיע ליה מיניה דרבי יוחנן דאמר מליח הרי הוא כרותח. And must be he heard from his rebbi that ultimately again maliach keroteiach which ultimately again salting is just like roasting. 39:58 Incredible. יתיב רב כהנא אחוה דרב יהודה. So Rav Kahana was sitting in front of Rav Huna. Rav Kahana was sitting in front of Rav Huna. Veyasav Ve'ka'amar and he said the following, קרא שמלחו בבשר אסור לאכול ברותח. 40:10 If you have a plate on which you salted meat, and therefore again operating with the idea that Maliach Ke'Roteach, salting is like roasting, therefore the plate absorbed blood, you can't subsequently put a hot piece of meat on that plate because the 40:23 hot piece of meat will then absorb, will then absorb the absorbed blood. 40:30 Utsnod Shechatacho Besakin, so let's say what happens if you cut a radish with a Fleishig knife? 40:36 Mutar Leachlo Bekusach. You could eat it with Kusach. 40:39 Now again, Rabosai, remember, it's been a little while since Kusach. Kusach is a crowd-pleaser, right, a crowd favorite, everyone's favorite Babylonian dish made with moldy bread and curdled milk. 40:50 Now again, it's obviously Milchig. 40:52 So watch this case. 40:54 I cut a radish with a Fleishig knife. 40:57 So the Gemara says you could eat that with Kusach. 40:59 Now what's the novelty there? 41:01 Take a look at Rashi. Rashi's right across the, צנון שחתכו בסכין אע\"ג דאגב חורפיה דצנון הוא בולע משמנוניתא דסכין דקריש עליו והרי האי צנון נתינת טעם ראשון דבליע איסור ממש דגבשר. 41:16 Now again, Rabosai, there's two issues with a radish. 41:19 Number one, and again we're going to get into this, a radish is what's called in Halacha a Davar Charif. Davar Charif means something with a sharp taste. 41:27 Something with a sharp taste is able to awaken even dormant absorptions. 41:32 But if you look at the Lashon of Rashi over here, the concern is actually a more acute concern. 41:37 You're cutting it with a Fleishig knife. 41:39 The assumption about this knife is that there's Fleishig Shmutz on this knife, which means now you have a radish with some Fleishig Shmutz on it. 41:49 So the Gemara says, oh, you could eat that with Kusach. 41:51 So what's going on over here? 41:53 So Gemara says, Mai Ta'ama? 41:55 What's the reason? Now again, Rabosai, there's two, so he said two Halachas. Halacha number one, Halacha number one is if you salted meat on a, on a plate, you cannot go ahead and then put a piece of meat on that plate. 42:08 And again, the logic is that what? 42:10 The plate absorbed blood. 42:11 If you then put a hot piece of meat there, the piece of meat is going to absorb the blood. 42:15 That was Halacha one. 42:16 Halacha two is if you cut a radish with a Fleishig knife, you could eat that radish with Kusach. 42:21 So Gemara says, I don't understand, Mai Ta'ama? Amar Abaye, האי היתירא בלע והאי איסורא בלע. 42:26 A very simple distinction. 42:27 Ultimately, the plate absorbed something prohibited, i.e. 42:31 blood, and the radish absorbed something permitted, i.e. 42:35 meat. Right, the meat is Muttar. Amar leh Rava, Rava says, that's fine. 42:40 כי בלע היתירא מאי הוי סוף סוף האי היתירא דאתי לידי איסור הוא דאיסורא קאכיל. What are you talking about? 42:44 Fine, that the radish absorbed meat flavor, that's Muttar. 42:47 That's fine. But you just said what could you eat the radish with? 42:50 With Kusach. That's Basar Bechalav. 42:52 Okay, granted, it's not real Basar Bechalav because you're not cooking it together, but it's still Assur. 42:56 How could you allow one to eat a Fleishig radish with Kusach? Ella Amar Rava, האי אפשר למיטעמיה והאי לא אפשר למיטעמיה. 43:04 Ah, no no, here's the distinction. 43:06 Rava says one you're allowed to taste test, one you can't taste test. 43:10 In other words, I could taste the radish and I could see, again, does the radish have meat flavor or not? 43:15 If it does, I won't eat it with Kusach. 43:17 If it doesn't, I will eat it with Kusach. 43:20 But the piece of meat, once you put that hot piece of meat on that plate on which meat was salted, right, ultimately I can't eat the meat. 43:27 Why? 'Cause what am I going to do? 43:29 Am I going to taste it to see if there's blood absorption? 43:30 I can't do that. 43:31 It's Assur. Velita'ameich Kafela Armah? So okay, so okay, a Jew can't taste it, but go get an, go get a Gentile, go get a non-Jew to taste it! 43:42 Mi lo Tenan, did we not learn, קדירה שבישל בה בשר לא יבשל בה חלב? 43:46 Right, if you have a, if you have a pot in which you cooked meat, you can't cook milk in there. 43:52 ואם בישל בה בנותן טעם. Ultimately, again, then you have to see, was there a taste infusion? 43:56 בישל בה תרומה לא יבשל בה חולין. Certainly again if you have a pot you cooked Truma in the pot, don't cook Chulin in there. 44:02 ואם בישל בה בנותן טעם. And if you did, you see if there was a taste infusion. 44:07 V'amrinan, בשלמא תרומה טעים ליה כהן. So when you cook Truma in a pot and then you cook Chulin, you could get a Kohen to see if there's a taste infusion because a Kohen is allowed to eat Truma. 44:14 אלא בשר בחלב מאן טעים ליה? But by Basar Bechalav who's going to taste test it? 44:21 ואמרי לן ליטעמיה קפילא. You have a non-Jewish chef, a non-Jewish Kafela taste it. 44:25 הכא נמי ליטעמיה קפילא. So just have, I don't understand, so in this case over here where you salted meat on a plate, and now you put a piece of meat on the plate, have a Kafela, have a non-Jew taste the piece of meat 44:36 to see if there's an infusion taste of blood. 44:38 To which Gemara says, הכא נמי כי קאמינא דליכא קפילא. 44:41 You're right, you're right, you're right. 44:42 What are we talking about over here? 44:44 We're talking about where there's no non-Jew to taste it. 44:45 So Rabosai, therefore, Halacha Lema'aseh, Gemara says like this: if you go ahead and you salt a piece of meat on a plate and now you put a hot piece of meat on that plate, so if there's a non-Jew to taste if there's 44:56 a blood infusion, fine, but if there's no non-Jew to taste it, then obviously you're not allowed. 45:01 On the other hand, *halacha lema'aseh*, if you cut a radish with a *fleishig* knife, there is a simple remedy. 45:08 What's the simple remedy? 45:09 Taste it! If there's a meat infusion, okay, you're *fleishig* so you can't eat your *kutach*. 45:14 But if there's no meat infusion of taste, ultimately again, you can eat it directly with the *kutach*. 45:18 *Hevray*, we'll stop over here for today. 45:21 Incredible, incredible *sugya*. *Halacha lema'aseh* about the liver, *Im yirtzeh Hashem* tomorrow. 45:24 *Yasher koach* everyone. Alright *chevre*, let's have a great day.
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