Transcript Translit עברית
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B'ezras Hashem, let us begin. 1:29 We have a lot to do today, some really great Gemara ahead of us today. 1:32 Today's daf is kuf tes zayin, 116. 1:35 We are picking up, B'ezras Hashem, we are picking up on קטו עמוד בית, 115b, and I believe we left off with where'd we leave off? 1:50 Lamah li l'meimar, right? Second to last short line. 1:54 Excellent. So Rabosai, remember again, we are in the midst of an exegetical hurricane over here. 1:59 That's so remember again, the interesting part, remember this is one of these beautiful Gemaras where the result is not really in question, but rather again the Gemara is just trying to figure out what exactly is the source for understanding the 2:11 three-prong prohibition of basar b'chalav, right? 2:14 Pretty much, not everyone, but pretty much everyone is agreeing that basar b'chalav contains three prohibitions: an issur bishul, can't eat, can't cook it, that's obvious, because that the Torah says, לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו, an issur achilah, can't eat it, and an issur hana'ah, can't get benefit from 2:32 it. The shaylah is where we're learning it out from. 2:35 So the Gemara has proposed a number of different sources for this halacha. 2:39 So we're in the middle over here. 2:40 The Gemara says: למה לי למימר כלאי הכרם יוכיח לימא ערלה תוכיח. 2:45 So why go ahead and bring a raya from kilai hakerem, bring a raya from orlah. 3:04 Go ahead and allow the matter to revert back and learn from a matzad. 3:07 Now Rabosai, a matzad ultimately again is, I guess for lack of a better term we call it like a common denominator. 3:13 So if you look at Rashi, Rashi's right across, v'leihadar dina, Rashi says כשחזר הדין מה לערלה שכן לא הייתה לה שעת הכושר. 3:22 So remember, orlah, we tried to learn out from orlah. 3:25 The reason why we didn't learn out from orlah is because orlah never had a permitted window, right? 3:30 Orlah is assur from the beginning of its existence. 3:33 The Gemara says then we brought up chametz. 3:42 חמץ יוכיח מה לחמץ שכן כרת. Then we brought up chametz, the problem with chametz is that chametz has a very severe prohibition of kares. 3:50 So the Gemara says: ערלה תוכיח וגמרינן ומייתינן במה צד. 3:53 So here's the interesting part. 3:54 We can't learn out from orlah by itself because orlah is assur from its inception. 3:59 Can't learn out from chametz by itself because chametz has an issur kares. 4:03 So Rabosai, so a lot of times when one item can't be a source what we end up doing is we bring in a lot of items and try to create a matzad, a common denominator. 4:12 What's the common denominator? 4:13 Ela, so the Gemara says ומייתינן במה צד כגון לא ראי ערלה כראי חמץ ולא ראי חמץ כראי ערלה הצד השווה שבהן, what is the common denominator amongst all of these things? 4:24 שאסורין באכילה ואסורין בהנאה. So interesting enough what's the common denominator between kilai hakerem, ultimately again chametz, and basar b'chalav, that they are all ultimately again an issur achilah and an issur hana'ah. 4:38 אף אני אביא בשר בחלב דהוה ואסור באכילה מגזירה שווה יהא אסור אף בהנאה. That's the matzad, the common denominator ultimately again between orlah and between chametz is ultimately again they have an issur achilah and an issur hana'ah, so too basar b'chalav which has an issur achilah will also have an issur hana'ah. 4:59 Incredible. Amar Rav Ashi. משום דאיכא למימר נבילה תוכיח cause the problem with this limud is neveila. 5:07 What's the issue with neveila? 5:09 שאסורה באכילה ומותרת בהנאה because again neveila is an issur, or neveila is a prohibition where the prohibition is on achila, but ultimately again remember is mutteret behana'a. 5:18 That kind of blows the matsad out of the water because again I find an example of in other words, the matsad wanted to essentially say that whenever you have an issur achila, that translates into an issur hana'a. 5:30 That's fine except it doesn't work because here's an example ultimately again of something that is an issur achila without an issur hana'a. 5:39 So the Gemara says אמר ליה רב מרדכי לרב אשי הכי אמרינן משמיה דריש לקיש כל מצד. 5:44 So again here's the issue rabosai. 5:45 Anytime you have a matsad, a common denominator, מגופו פרכינן מעלמא לא פרכינן. 5:50 The way to undermine or discredit a matsad is only internally. 5:53 In other words, you could only blow up a matsad from some type of inconsistency from the items that are part of the matsad. 6:00 Ultimately again you can't refute a matsad from an external piece of information. 6:06 Why? Again rabosai, this is the exegetical method. 6:09 So the Gemara says ee hachi, if that's the case, teisei mehamatsad. 6:12 So then learn it out from the matsad like we just said before. 6:14 The Gemara says משום דאיכא למפרך מה למצד השוה שבהן שכן גידולי קרקע. 6:20 No, because again even the matsad again rabosai remember again the matsad was between orlah, chametz and then we wanted to include basar bechalav also. 6:28 Right? But the primary the items that created the common denominator was really orlah and chametz. 6:33 Now maybe there's a different matsad, maybe there's a different common denominator between orlah and chametz. 6:36 What's the common denominator? 6:38 They both grow from the ground, but yet again basar bechalav would not share that common denominator. 6:45 Ee hachi, השתא נמי איכא למפרך. If that's the case, you could ask a different pircha. 6:54 So if that's the case again going back to kilai hakerem you could bring that up as well. 6:58 אמר ליה רב מרדכי לרב אשי הכי אמרינן משמיה דריש לקיש. This is what they meant to say from Reish Lakish. 7:03 Now again rabosai, this is now getting into the nitty gritty of how the matsad works. 7:07 כל מצד פרכינן כל דהו. Anytime you have a matsad, again a matsad could be disrupted or upended through highlighting any type of profound difference between the items in the exegetical equation. 7:20 Lo im amart, now again rabosai lo im amart this is a different type of halakhic construct of argument. 7:26 Lo im amart means no but you could say this. 7:28 That's another mechanism the Gemara uses for a limud. 7:31 That could be destroyed ultimately again by a kal vachomer, a more lenient or more stringent piece. 7:37 כל דהו לא פרכינן. Fine. Velifroch leculhu. But the Gemara says I don't understand, why don't we ask on all of these items? 7:44 In other words rabosai, remember again we have three items in this whole mix: kilai hakerem, chametz, and orlah. 7:50 Why can't you ask on all of these items? 7:52 מה לכולהו שכן גידולי קרקע. All of these items grow from the ground. 7:57 That's the common denominator between chametz, kilai hakerem, and orlah. 8:01 And again basar bechalav obviously doesn't fall into that construct. 8:04 אמר ליה רב מרדכי לרב אשי הכי אמרינן משמיה דריש לקיש. So he meant to say Reish Lakish. 8:08 Rabosai top of kuf tet vav, 116a. 8:11 Chada mechada, when you're learning out one item from another item, קולא וחומרא פרכינן כל דהו לא פרכינן. 8:17 So again you could raise a leniency or a stringency and that could upend the limud, but a kol dehu, kol dehu rabosai means a difference, any type bringing up any type of difference will not undermine the limud. Chada mitarti, if you're learning one thing out from 8:30 two other items, kol dehu parchinan, then even raising a difference could undermine the limud. Chada mitlat, if you're learning one thing out from three things, אי הדר דינא ואתי במצד, if ultimately again the matter reverts back and now you're learning it out from a common denominator, parchinan kol dehu. 8:49 Ultimately again you could upend it through any raising any type of difference. 8:53 Vee lo, and if not, קולא וחומרא פרכינן כל דהו לא פרכינן. 8:58 Then you could go ahead and bring up some type of leniency or stringency, but not but bringing up a mere difference will not upend the limud. Ai the Gemara says velifroch, מה לכלאי הכרם שכן לא היתה לו שעת הכושר. 9:10 But one second, isn't there a different issue? 9:12 How can you even think to go ahead and compare basar bechalav to kilai hakerem? 9:17 Why? Kilai hakerem never had a time in which it was permitted as opposed to basar bechalav which did have a time in which it was permitted before it was mixed together. 9:27 אמר רב אדא בר אהבה זאת אומרת כלאי הכרם עיקרן נאסר. Now this would seem to indicate to us rabosai, it's actually very interesting, that when you have kilai hakerem, the original seeds that are mixed together become assur as well. 9:41 In other words rabosai we're going to see this is an interesting machlokes, that is it only the additional growth that comes from kilai hakerem that's assur or even the original seeds. 9:49 Based on the question the Gemara is asking it sounds like even the original seeds. 9:53 So the Gemara says זאת אומרת כלאי הכרם עיקרן נאסר והיתה להם שעת הכושר קודם השרשה. 10:00 But there was a So there was a point in time in which they were fit before they took root. 10:03 Masvei Rav Shemaya bar Zeira—wait a second, is that true? 10:06 Sorry, masvei Rav Shemaya bar Zeira: המעביר עציץ נקוב בכרם. 10:10 This is an interesting case. 10:12 If you take a perforated flowerpot, so imagine for a moment you have a vineyard and inside a perforated flowerpot, you have grain seeds. 10:23 You have grain seeds. 10:24 Now the flowerpot itself is perforated. 10:27 So again rabosai, the way halacha works, there's this halacha s'vara that seeds can be nourished even through airspace. 10:36 So therefore again if halacha lema'aseh you have a vineyard and you have a perforated flowerpot and in that perforated flowerpot you have grain seeds and you're passing that over the airspace of the vineyard, those grain seeds are in fact nourished through 10:52 the airspace of the vineyard. 10:54 In which case you could potentially have a case of klay hakerem. 10:58 So the Gemara says now what's the halacha? 11:00 אם הוסיף מאתיים אסור. If in other words if the seed grows even one-two-hundredth, right, even a very small amount of growth, right, then ultimately again it's assur as klay hakerem. 11:11 So the Gemara says what do you see from here? 11:12 הוסיף אין לא הוסיף לא. Now it's only if there's additional growth. 11:17 So it sounds like only if there's additional growth there's a problem, but just stam it's not problematic. 11:22 Amar Abaye, Abaye says no no no, trei kra'i ksivi. 11:25 There are two different psukim. 11:27 On one hand it says pen tikdash hamlei'ah. 11:31 So ultimately again the pasuk says lest the m'le'ah and again rabosai m'le'ah means the growth. 11:36 If the growth will be now remember this goes back to yesterday's tikdash, tikdash means set aside for non-use, prohibited, right? 11:43 The growth will be prohibited. 11:45 That's by klay hakerem. Uchsiv hazara. And then it says the seed will be prohibited. 11:50 So rabosai, so which one is it? 11:51 Is it the seed that's prohibited or is it the growth that's prohibited? 11:56 Ha keitzad? The Gemara says it depends. 11:57 Zroa me'ikara b'hashrasha. If at the end of the day all we have in the beginning is seeds, seeds become prohibited from the time that they will take root. 12:10 In a klay hakerem case if you're just planting seeds, the seeds themselves become prohibited at the time they take root. 12:17 Zroa uva, but if something let's say you had a seed that was already planted, already had roots, right, and now you're replanting it in the vineyard, הוסיף אין לא הוסיף לא. 12:28 If it adds on, if there's additional growth that is added on, then it becomes prohibited, but not additional growth, it will not become prohibited. 12:35 Okay, so rabosai, so that was that's that's just this whole limud of trying to figure out ultimately again how we know basar bechalav is assur. 12:45 Now again like I said, bishul we're taking for granted now. 12:47 We all know. Rather achilah v'hana'ah and the Gemara kind of just went through a pretty convoluted process to try to figure that out without really seeming to reach a conclusion in this last limud. 12:59 Okay, so therefore the Gemara now snaps it back to our original discussion. 13:02 מתניתין דלא כי האי תנא. Our mishna so rabosai so again once again what do we have? 13:08 What we have is everyone is agreeing essentially now again we'll see some disagreement in just a moment, but everyone is agreeing on the core principles, which is basar bechalav is a threefold prohibition: issur bishul, issur achilah, issur hana'ah. 13:22 Where do we learn that out from? 13:23 That's this whole machlokes over here. 13:26 So now the Gemara says מתניתין דלא כי האי תנא. 13:29 Our mishna does not reflect the view of the following tanna. 13:32 What's the opinion? דתניא רבי שמעון יהודה אומר משום רבי שמעון בשר בחלב אסור באכילה ומותר בהנאה. 13:39 Oh, okay. So now the Gemara says by the way there is another opinion, an outlier opinion. 13:47 This opinion of Rabbi Shimon who says basar bechalav is assur beachilah you can't eat it, but it is muttar behana'ah, you can get benefit from it. 13:58 שנאמר כי עם קדוש אתה. Because the pasuk says you are a holy nation, this is by basar bechalav. 14:05 ונאמר להלן ואנשי קודש תהיון לי. So again rabosai, then the pasuk says be a nation of holiness for me, this pasuk, is ובשר בשדה טריפה לא תאכלו. 14:17 You can't eat a treifah. 14:19 You can't eat a treifah, right? 14:20 So again remember treifah is an animal that was well the classic case of treifah is an animal that was killed by another animal, another predatory animal. 14:29 So the Torah says you can't eat a treifah. 14:32 So the Gemara says מה להלן אסור באכילה מותר בהנאה אף כאן אסור באכילה מותר בהנאה. 14:34 Just like by treifah, and rabosai what's the halacha by treifah? 14:39 You can't eat it. 14:42 But can you get benefit from it? 14:44 Yes. How do we know that? 14:45 The pasuk explicitly says l'kelev tashlichun oso. 14:49 What can you do? 14:50 Feed it to your animal. 14:51 So I can get benefit from it. 14:53 So what the so Rabbi Shimon is picking up on over here is the same verbiage, anshei kodesh, then it says by treifah, ki am kodesh, that it says by... 15:01 it says by basar bechalav to create a textual symmetry to tell us that just like treifoh ultimately again is assur bachila, mutar behana'ah, so too again basar bechalav, assur bachila and mutar behana'ah. 15:15 So the Gemara just feels compelled by the way to tell us, up until this point the sugya was operating with the idea that everyone is on the same exact page, namely that halacha lema'aseh there is a threefold prohibition of basar bechalav: bishul, achila, hana'ah. 15:29 Then the Gemara just says by the way, it's important to know not everyone agrees with that. 15:34 Okay, so there is this opinion of Rabbi Shimon and Rabbi Shimon is of the opinion that yes, issur bishul, like I get it pashut, you can't argue with the issur bishul because that's explicitly stated in the Torah, and issur achila, but no issur hana'ah. 15:47 That's Rabbi Shimon. Rabotai, I just point out the Kotzker brings down as a beautiful, beautiful vort on this. 15:52 The pasuk says ואנשי קדש תהיון לי. 15:55 Be holy people. So the Kotzker says, Hakadosh Baruch Hu says, I don't need any more malachim. Mamash says I have plenty of angels. 16:04 And if I want more angels, I could just create more at the snap of my divine finger. 16:10 So what am I looking for says the Kotzker, Hakadosh Baruch Hu says what am I looking for? 16:13 A few good men. 16:16 ואנשי קדש תהיון לי. I'm looking for good men. 16:20 I'm looking for good human beings. 16:21 Rabotai, this is the most life-affirming vort. 16:25 The Ribbono shel Olam does not need us to be angelic. 16:28 He doesn't want us to be angelic. 16:30 If he wanted us to be angelic, then he would have created us as malachim. 16:34 That is never our avodah, rabotai. 16:37 Sometimes the most frustrating things in life is that we create for ourselves some type of self-imposed unrealistic expectation, like we're supposed to be perfect, like we're supposed to be malachim. 16:49 That's never the case. 16:51 Hakadosh Baruch Hu does not want more angels. 16:53 He has, in fact, lashon of the, lashon of the Kotzker is מלאכים יש לו להקדוש ברוך הוא די והותר. 16:58 Ribbono shel Olam has plenty of malachim, more malachim than he knows what to do with. 17:03 So what is he looking for? 17:05 Anshei kodesh, anshei kodesh, holy men, human beings, men with all of their frailties, all of their difficulties, all of their shortcomings, who just want to be something more in life. 17:18 That's all, rabotai, that's all Hakadosh Baruch Hu asks from us. 17:22 Just push yourself to try to become something more. 17:25 Not perfect, not even excellent, not even incredible, just a little bit more and a little bit holier. 17:32 Incredible. Ai, rabotai, this daf brings to an end this sugya. 17:35 Now rabotai, what I just do want to point out for you is the Shulchan Aruch paskens like, like the drasha of Rebbi. 17:42 Right this, remember again we had in yesterday's daf the drasha of Rebbi, that the pasuk says this is actually the first, the first halacha in hilchos basar bechalav. 17:52 This is in Yoreh Deah, siman peh-zayin halacha alef. Kasav baTorah, listen to this rabotai, here it is, kasav baTorah לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו ג' פעמים. 18:01 The Torah says do not cook a kid in its mother's milk three times. 18:05 Why three times? Echad le'issur bishul, one to tell you you can't cook it, echad le'issur achila, one to tell you you can't eat it, ve'echad le'issur hana'ah, and ultimately again one to go ahead and tell you that you can't get benefit from it. 18:20 So rabotai, I just want to point out the Shulchan Aruch itself, this was the limud of Rebbi. 18:25 We had this in yesterday's daf. 18:27 This was Rebbi's drasha and that's the drasha that the Shulchan Aruch, that the halacha accepts halacha lema'aseh. 18:34 Incredible. Let's go a little more halacha today, let's go a little bit weiter. Rabbi Yose HaGlili omer, ne'emar lo sochelu. 18:39 Again rabotai, remember again Rabbi Yose HaGlili was in the mishna. 18:43 What did Rabbi Yose HaGlili say? 18:44 Rabbi Yose HaGlili said in the mishna... 18:44 oh, this is Rabbi Akiva. 18:48 Sorry, I must, mechila from Rabbi Akiva, chas veshalom, Rabbi Akiva omer chayah ve'of. 18:52 So rabotai, what did Rabbi Akiva say in the mishna? Rabbi Akiva wanted to suggest that chayah and of are not assur min haTorah. 19:00 Right, only, only basar behemah is assur min haTorah, chayah and of ultimately again are derabbanan. 19:07 Why? In Rabbi Akiva's drasha he said לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו three times also, right, of course it's a pasuk, right, and he understood פרט לחיה ולעוף ובהמה טמאה. 19:19 The three times gedi comes to exclude three things. 19:23 Number one chayah, number two of, number three non-kosher animal. 19:27 So let's analyze. Says the Gemara, Rabbi Akiva omer chayah ve'of הני התקינהו לכי דשמואל. 19:31 Gemara says one second, we already used the three drashos ultimately again for Shmuel. 19:40 What did Shmuel say rabotai? Rashi says over here, Rashi is about five lines up before it gets the intermediate lines. 19:45 הדרינהו לכי דשמואל חד לחלב ומתה וחד לריבוי שליל וחד להוציא טמאה. So again rabotai, one was to go ahead and say that ultimately again chelev umesa, one was to include a shlil... 20:01 and one was to exclude behema temeya. 20:03 To which the Gemara says kasavar Rabbi Akiva, Rabbi Akiva holds איסור חל על איסור. 20:07 Rabbi Akiva holds that one issur could devolve upon another issur. 20:10 Therefore again חלב ומתה לא צריכא קרא. Therefore again I don't need a passuk for cheilev and mesa because even though cheilev and mesa are both assur but the prohibition of basar b'chalav could devolve upon those items. 20:22 Shalil, a fetus, kidei ma'alyahu is a regular gedi, is considered to be just a regular animal. 20:29 Therefore again yisru lehu kulu, פרט לחיה ועוף ולבהמה טמאה. 20:32 Therefore again Rabbi Akiva has a drasha and Rabbi Akiva says gedi three times, one to include chaya, one to include of, sorry, one to exclude chaya, one to exclude of, and one to exclude non-kosher animals. 20:48 Okay. Rabbi Yose HaGlili omer, neemru lo sochlu. So again rabbosai, Rabbi Yose HaGlili in the Mishnah said as follows. 20:54 Rabbi Yose HaGlili was of the, where's Rabbi Yose HaGlili? 20:58 Sorry, I just lost the place. 21:00 Rabbi Yose HaGlili said נאמר לא תאכלו כל נבילה ונאמר לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו. So Rabbi Yose HaGlili notes the juxtaposition between neveila and basar b'chalav to teach me אסור על צד נבילה is going to be subject to basar b'chalav. 21:17 And again rabbosai, so that pretty much, now that would include chaya and it also would include of. 21:29 Yet Rabbi Yose HaGlili agrees that I'm going to exclude of, why? 21:33 Because the Torah says לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו. 21:36 The only type of animal that is subject to a basar b'chalav prohibition is an animal whose mother produces milk, but an of because the mother doesn't produce milk, therefore is not subject to basar b'chalav. 21:49 So the Gemara says מאי איכא בין רבי יוסי הגלילי ורבי עקיבא? 21:52 So what's the distinction between Rabbi Yose HaGlili and Rabbi Akiva? Ika beinaihu chaya, chaya is the distinction because again remember Rabbi Akiva excludes chaya and ultimately again Rabbi Yose HaGlili includes chaya. Rabbi Yose HaGlili savar chaya d'oraisa. Rabbi Yose HaGlili says that chaya is subject ultimately again that chaya is subject to בשר בחלב דאורייתא. 22:13 Rabbi Akiva savar chaya d'rabbanan and Rabbi Akiva holds ultimately again it's d'rabbanan. Si'ibaiseima, another possibility is of ika beinaihu. 22:21 This fundamental difference is of. Rabbi Akiva savar חיה ועוף אינן מן התורה, ha mid'rabbanan asiri. 22:29 So Rabbi Akiva holds that chaya and of are not assur min haTorah but they are assur mid'rabbanan. Rabbi Yose HaGlili savar עוף אפילו מדרבנן נמי לא אסור. 22:38 It's a very interesting, it could be Rabbi Yose HaGlili holds that of is not even assur mid'rabbanan. 22:44 So rabbosai hear this, according to according to Rabbi Akiva, Rabbi Akiva holds that chicken and milk is still going to be assur mid'rabbanan, assur mid'rabbanan. Rabbi Yose HaGlili says totally mutar, totally mutar. 22:56 There is no issur at all even d'rabbanan on of and chalav. 23:02 So the Gemara says tanya nami hachi, a braisa that supports this. 23:04 So rabbosai this is actually pretty incredible. 23:05 במקומו של רבי אליעזר היו כורתין עצים לעשות פחמין לעשות ברזל. This is actually very interesting. 23:13 The Gemara says this is a totally unrelated topic. 23:15 The halacha is that bris milah is done on Shabbos. 23:18 Right? Now again that's a novelty, why? 23:21 Because bris milah is an issur d'oraisa. 23:23 What's the issur d'oraisa of bris milah? 23:24 The halacha is anytime you draw blood on Shabbos that is actually the issur of shechita. 23:33 So therefore again giving a baby a bris on Shabbos is actually the av melacha of shechita. 23:38 So why are we allowed to do it? 23:39 Because the Torah says ביום השמיני ימול בשר ערלתו on the eighth day. 23:44 So the Gemara darshans bayom hashmini afilu b'Shabbos. 23:47 The interesting shayla is, okay so that's the milah itself. 23:51 What about the preparatory acts which enable milah? 23:54 Let's say for example I'm ready to give a bris milah on Shabbos, I realize oh I don't have a knife. 23:59 I don't have a knife. 24:00 No problem, I'm very skilled, right? 24:03 I can make a knife. 24:03 What do I need to do? 24:04 I need to chop down some trees, make some coals, forge metal and go ahead and make a knife. 24:10 Right? So am I allowed to do that on Shabbos? 24:12 Now that's what we call machshirin, right? 24:15 Machshirin again rabbosai machshirin, again like we have machshir Yom Tov, machshirin ultimately are preparatory acts. 24:21 So Rabbi Eliezer, so the Gemara says במקומו של רבי אליעזר היו כורתין עצים לעשות פחמין לעשות ברזל. 24:28 And in the locale of Rabbi Eliezer they would literally cut down trees in order to make coals in order to forge metal, which is another way of saying that Rabbi Eliezer said not only are you allowed to do the milah on Shabbos 24:38 but what? You could also do the machshirin, the preparatory acts to enable milah as well. 24:45 Again nothing to do with our topic right now, but just interest of the same braisa. 24:50 במקומו של רבי יוסי הגלילי, listen to this, in Rabbi Yose HaGlili's locale היו אוכלין בשר עוף בחלב. 24:57 They would eat chicken and milk. 24:59 They would eat chicken and milk. 25:00 No issur. Yosef Rishba is a trapper. 25:09 He was a trapper of of of animals. 25:12 אייתו לקמיה רישא דציפורתא בחלבא. They brought him, they brought him a bird's head in milk. 25:25 Okay, that was the that was the that was the today's special, right? 25:28 Right, they brought they brought a bird a bird a bird head in milk. 25:32 ולא אמר להו ולא מידי. And ultimately again, Levi didn't say anything. 25:37 Levi Levi didn't object. כי אתא לקמיה דרבי אמר ליה אמאי לא תשמתינהו? 25:45 Why did you not excommunicate him for putting chicken and milk? 25:54 אמר ליה אתריה דרבי יהודה בן בתירה הוה, ואמינא דריש להו כרבי יוסי הגלילי דאמר יצא עוף שאין לו חלב אם. So rabbosai, it turns out fascinatingly enough that the point of contention between Rabbi Yose Ha-Glili and Rabbi Akiva is a twofold point of contention. 26:14 Number one, Rabbi Akiva holds that chaya is not subject, ultimately again, to basar be-chalav. 26:20 Right, but Rabbi Akiva holds that both chaya and of are not subject to basar be-chalav de-oraisa, but are subject de-rabanan. Rabbi Yose Ha-Glili disagrees. 26:31 He says chaya is subject de-oraisa and of is not even subject de-rabanan. 26:37 Totally muttar. According to Rabbi Akiva, sorry, according to Rabbi Yose Ha-Glili, you could literally eat of be-chalav l'chatchila. 26:46 So rabbosai, how do we pasken? 26:47 So again, the Shulchan Aruch says this is again in Siman Pey-Zayin. 26:52 The Shulchan Aruch says as follows. 26:53 The Shulchan Aruch writes, גדי, this is in פ\"ז ב'. 26:57 Gedi lav davka. So first of all, the Shulchan Aruch says even though the prohibition is phrased as a gedi, a kid, gedi is not specific. 27:05 הוא הדין שאר סייא, לא שנא בחלב אם ולא שנא בחלב אחרת אלא שדיבר הכתוב בהווה. So rabbosai, halacha le-ma'aseh, halacha le-ma'aseh, so the Gemara says, so first of all, gedi refers to all animals. 27:23 Okay. Now the Shulchan Aruch goes on, he says, אינו נוהג אלא בשר בהמה טהורה בחלב בהמה טהורה. 27:30 So first of all, basar be-chalav, this is very important, only applies to kosher animal, kosher meat in kosher milk. 27:39 אבל בשר טהורה בחלב טמאה או בשר טמאה בחלב טהורה מותרים בבישול ובהנאה. This is very important. 27:48 Halacha le-ma'aseh, the biblical prohibition of basar be-chalav: kosher meat, kosher milk. 27:54 Right? So therefore again, non-kosher meat, kosher milk, kosher meat, non-kosher milk, that is going to be only assur mi-derabanan. 28:00 And therefore, because it's assur mi-derabanan, what it means is you can't eat it, obviously you can't eat it because you have a non-kosher item, but you are allowed to cook it and you can get benefit from it. 28:12 And rabbosai, now here we go. 28:13 Basar chaya ve-of, what about again the meat of a chaya and fowl? 28:18 אפילו בחלב טהורה מותר בבישול ובהנאה ואף באכילה אינו אסור אלא מדרבנן. So rabbosai, essentially we pasken like Rabbi Akiva, that halacha le-ma'aseh, halacha le-ma'aseh, basar chaya and basar of ultimately again are going to be assur only mi-derabanan. 28:37 This is fascinating. So biblical basar be-chalav is only assur mi-de'oraisa, it's basar behema with milk. 28:45 But basar chaya, basar of, ultimately again is going to be muttar mi-de'oraisa, assur mi-derabanan. Assur mi-derabanan. 28:54 Quite fascinating. אבל דגים וחגבים אין בהם איסור אפילו מדרבנן. Grasshoppers and fish with milk: muttar totally. 29:02 rabbosai, I'll just point out over here, the Rama adds a very interesting idea. 29:06 He says, ונהגו לעשות חלב משקדים ומניחין בו בשר עוף הואיל ואינו רק מדרבנן. Listen to this. 29:15 So the Rama says, I don't know what the dish was, they used to make almond milk. 29:20 Almond milk. And the Rama says people would make chicken in almond milk. 29:25 And the Rama says totally fine. 29:27 Totally fine. Why? Because remember again, of is only mi-derabanan. 29:31 So because of that, almond milk totally fine. 29:34 He says however, אבל בשר בהמה יש להניח אצל חלב שקדים משום מראית העין. 29:42 It's very interesting. But if you have a recipe that calls for meat and almond milk, what do you need to do? 29:47 So he says you need to put the almond shells around the dish so that people know that it's almond milk. 29:53 So rabbosai, just interesting, just interesting. 29:55 So again, now I'll tell you where this was a to-do. 29:58 Rav Moshe Feinstein has a tshuva. 30:00 where again I was saying if you remember I don't know if any of us I know most of us remember because it probably predates some of us when they first came out with non-dairy creamer so it was a very obviously 30:10 it was a it was a novel a novel thing so Rav Moshe paskined that when they served the non-dairy creamer at chasunas they had to keep it either in the container or go ahead and put some type of heker so that people 30:22 should know that it's non-dairy creamer. 30:24 Now again today no one's makpid on this because it's so clear we have such a proliferation of these types of items Baruch Hashem so it's not a problem but again based on that Rama the Rama says you want to make chicken 30:34 and almond milk no problem go for it go for it because again chicken and even regular milk is only midirabbanan but if you want to make meat and almond milk there has to be something recognizable ocularly recognizable that people could 30:47 see that it's clear that you're using almond milk in this dish. 30:50 Incredible. Okay so rabosei sefer halacha l'maaseh the way we paskin is the only issur d'oraisa is if it's basar behema kosher kosher behema meat with kosher milk. 31:00 Chaya and of are going to be assur only midirabbanan. 31:05 Incredible. Says the Mishna rabosei now moving into a really fascinating sugya as well about cheese. 31:12 Cheese so the Gemara says Mishna says קיבת עובדי כוכבים ושל נבלה הרי זו אסורה. 31:18 So rabosei so I just want to point out over here so just just to get our our wording our wording correct. 31:23 Keiva up until now when we saw that word keiva always meant the stomach of the animal. 31:29 In this context when the Mishna says keiva keiva refers to the milk. 31:33 Now there are two ways you could make a cheese I mean there are multiple ways now today we use what's the word not artificial alright we'll call it artificial enzymes but the way that they used to make milk was you 31:45 would use rennet. Now how do you have rennet? 31:47 Rennet could be one of two ways. 31:48 Either you could take the actual milk inside of the of the stomach of the animal and that could be used as rennet. 31:55 Rennet is a coagulant right? 31:56 You introduce rennet into milk and it causes causes the milk to curdle creating the process the enzyme for creating cheese. 32:04 Or what you could also do is take a piece of the actual stomach of the animal and that contains rennet as well and that could be used as the coagulant. 32:14 When the Mishna says keiva keiva is referring to the milk found inside the stomach of the animal versus or keiva when you see literally again the flesh of the stomach that refers to a piece of the stomach itself. 32:30 So now go back to the Mishna. 32:32 The Mishna says keivas ovdei kochavim if you have again the the the piece oh literally again the milk from the stomach of an animal of an akum. Rashi says over keiva זהו חלב קרוש שבתוך הקיבה. 32:46 This is referring to curdled milk that is actually inside of the stomach digested milk that is actually inside of the stomach of the animal of the ovdei kochavim v'shel neveila or again for that matter milk from inside the stomach of a neveila harei zu assura. 33:04 This is assur. You can't use it to make kosher cheese. 33:07 Okay we'll see why. 33:09 המעמיד בעור של קיבה כשרה. But if you use listen to this if you take a piece of stomach from the actual animal of an ovdei kochavim or a piece of stomach ultimately again or a piece of stomach from a neveila and you drop that into 33:22 kosher milk to make cheese that is muttar. 33:26 Fascinating right? That's muttar. 33:27 So again rabosei hear this distinction. 33:29 If you take from the milk of the the curdled milk from from inside the stomach of the animal of an akum or from a neveila and use that to make kosher cheese the cheese is treif. 33:39 If you take a piece of the stomach from the animal of an akum or the piece of the stomach from a neveila and you drop that into milk to make cheese ultimately again it's going to be muttar. 33:49 Why that distinction? We'll have to see. 33:51 Amud Beis and we see Gemara says I actually I went too quickly sorry let's take a step back. 33:56 If you take a piece of the stomach from the animal of the akum or ultimately again from the neveila the Mishna says Amud Beis אם יש בנותן טעם הרי זו אסורה. 34:05 If the stomach infuses taste into the milk ultimately again it's going to be assur but if not ultimately again it's going to be muttar. 34:14 כשרה שינקה מן הטרפה. If you have a kosher animal which nursed from a treifa ultimately again keivasa assura. 34:23 The curdled milk that you find inside its stomach is going to be assur because again the logic seems to be since it's coming from a treifa animal. 34:32 טרפה שינקה מן הכשרה. However again if you have a treifa animal which nursed from a kosher animal and then you go ahead and you slaughter the animal you open it up and you find milk inside of its stomach keivasa mutteres. 34:42 Ultimately again the milk in its stomach is going to be muttar why? 34:45 Mipnei shekanus b'me'eiha. Ultimately again because it's gathered inside of its stomach. 34:49 So rabosei this last halacha is quite fascinating. 34:52 So you have a kosher animal that nursed from a treifa the Gemara says you can't use that curdled milk inside of the kosher animal's stomach since it came from a treifa. 35:01 But yet, if you have a treifa which nursed from a kosher animal, and then you slaughter the treifa, open it up, you could use that curdled milk inside of the treifa's stomach since it came from a kosher animal. 35:13 We'll have to see how that plays out exactly. 35:14 Says the Gemara, let's analyze. 35:15 Amar. So Gemara says אטו קיבת עובד כוכבים לאו נבילה היא. 35:18 Gemara says one second. 35:20 So Rabbosai, if you notice the way the Mishna was structured is the Mishna right in a very interesting way. 35:25 The Mishna said קיבת עובד כוכבים ושל נבילה. 35:30 If you have the milk, if you have the milk, ultimately, again, from the animal of an oved kochavim or the milk from the stomach of a neveila, ultimately, again, the Gemara says it's assur. 35:40 So Gemara understands what's the difference? 35:42 Isn't the animal of an oved kochavim a neveila? 35:45 Isn't it the same thing? 35:46 Rabbosai, remember again, how'd you get the milk out of the animal's stomach? 35:49 How are you getting it out of there? 35:50 You're slaughtering the animal, obviously. 35:52 You're killing the animal. 35:53 So I don't understand. 35:54 The animal of an oved kochavim is the same thing as a neveila, right? 35:57 This is the same thing, be-pashtus, you're not shechting the animal, it's just a neveila. 36:02 So amar Rav Huna, הכא בלוקח גדיים מן עובד כוכבים עסקינן. You know what's the case over here? 36:07 The case is where I bought a kid, I bought the gedi from an oved kochavim וחישינן שמא ינק מן הטרפה. 36:14 And what's the case? 36:15 The case over here is I bought an animal from the oved kochavim. 36:18 I'm going to shecht it ke-halacha, but I still the Gemara says, the Mishna says, I still can't use the curdled milk inside of its stomach. 36:26 Why? Because I'm concerned that when it was owned by the oved kochavim it nursed from a treifa, and therefore that collected milk inside of its stomach is treifa milk and therefore cannot be used. 36:39 Gemara says one second. 36:40 ומי חיישינן שמא ינק מן הטרפה? Do we have to be concerned about that, that an animal that the animal that I bought from the akum nursed from a treifa? 36:50 Again, Rabbosai, remember again, u-tenan, we learned לוקחים ביצים מן עובדי כוכבים ואין חוששין. 36:56 And yet we learned, halacha le-maaseh, I can buy eggs, I can buy eggs from an akum. 37:01 Now, again, Rabbosai, remember again, we saw this before. 37:04 Remember kosher eggs look different than non-kosher eggs. 37:07 So in this case over here, I could buy eggs from an akum, first I know they're from a kosher species. 37:12 But what do I have to be concerned about? 37:16 ואין חוששין משום נבלה ולא משום טרפה. Now, again, Rabbosai, just because the egg is from a kosher species, how do I know that the akum didn't take the eggs out of a dead chicken? 37:26 Remember again, Rabbosai, those eggs would be assur, right? 37:28 Or for that matter, again, maybe the animal that he got them from was a treifa animal. 37:32 So halacha le-maaseh, again, I don't have to be concerned. 37:36 The point over here is that halacha le-maaseh, halacha le-maaseh, when you purchase from an akum, you need not be concerned about these things. 37:44 So too if I purchase a gedi from an akum, I don't have to be concerned that what? 37:50 That maybe the animal nursed from a treifa. 37:51 אלא אימא חיישינן שמא ינק מן הטמאה. You're right. What are we concerned about, Rabbosai? 37:57 I'm concerned that maybe the gedi that I bought from the akum maybe nursed from a non-kosher animal. 38:04 Since an akum has all kinds of animals, maybe halacha le-maaseh, again, it nursed from a non-kosher animal. 38:10 ומאי שנא טרפה דלא חיישינן ומאי שנא טמאה דחיישינן? So I don't understand. 38:14 If I'm not concerned that it nursed from a treifa, why should I be concerned that it nursed from a tmeia? 38:20 To which the Gemara says טרפה לא שכיחא טמאה שכיחא. 38:23 A very simple distinction. 38:25 A treifa animal is not so common. 38:27 A tmeia animal is very common, especially by an akum, right? 38:30 An akum probably has all kinds of non-kosher animals. 38:33 To which the Gemara says, if that's the case, אי שכיחא אפילו גבי דידן נמי נחוש. 38:38 If that's the case, then, Rabbosai, even in my own flock, my own flock, why shouldn't I be concerned that maybe my animal somehow wandered off and nursed from a non-kosher animal? 38:48 To which the Gemara says no, no, anan de-badilnan mineiahu. 38:53 Because we keep our distance from non-kosher animals. 38:56 וכי חזינן להו מפרשינן להו. And if I see my animal gravitating towards the wrong chevra, right? 39:02 I see it hanging out with the wrong guys, I see it hanging out, right? 39:05 Gravitating towards the non-kosher animals. 39:07 מפרשינן להו. I'll make sure to separate it. 39:09 Therefore, again, לא גזרו בהו רבנן. Chazal were not gozer. 39:13 On the other hand, אינהו דלא בדילי מינייהו. 39:17 But by an akum, who's not makpid about who his animals hang out with. 39:20 Therefore, וכי חזו להו לא מפרשי להו. Therefore, if the even if the akum sees his gedi gravitating towards non-kosher animals, he's not going to separate his gedi from the rest of the animals. 39:33 Therefore, gazru behu rabanan. Therefore, again, Chazal were gozer. Rabbosai, this is actually very interesting. 39:38 So Rav Huna, Rav Huna says the case over here is where I'm purchasing a gedi from an akum, I'm purchasing a kosher animal from an akum, yet interestingly enough, halacha le-maaseh, the Mishna says I can't use the milk I find in that slaughtered gedi 39:56 because I'm concerned that what? 39:59 That since it was under the ownership_ That's Rav Huna. Shmuel amar Shmuel says no, chada katani. 40:13 In fact, we have to read the mishna ultimately again as one comprehensive case. 40:17 What's the case? Here we go. 40:19 קיבת שחיטת עובד כוכבים נבילה. That's what Shmuel says. 40:23 No, no, the case of the mishna is like this. 40:25 When you go ahead and the literally again the stomach, right, the milk from the milk from an animal slaughtered by an akum, ultimately again, is neveila. 40:40 That's the case. It's not two cases. 40:41 It's not the case of a stomach of the animal of an akum and the stomach of a neveila, rather what it's saying is the milk found in the stomach of an animal killed by an akum has the status of neveila. 40:56 Did Shmuel actually say this? 40:57 Va'amar Shmuel, Shmuel said, מפני מה אסרו גבינת עובדי כוכבים? מפני שמעמידין אותה באור קיבת נבילה. Yet, rabosai, Shmuel said that the reason you can't eat the cheese of an akum, rabosai, is why? 41:09 Because ultimately again, they actually use a piece of stomach. 41:12 Right, because by the akum, they actually use, literally again, not the milk inside the stomach, but rather what? 41:19 An actual piece of stomach itself. 41:22 That's why it's problematic. 41:22 הא קיבה גופא שריא? I could infer from this what? 41:26 I could infer from this that according to Shmuel, it's only problematic if you use a piece of the stomach. 41:30 But if, halacha lema'aseh, you use the milk in the stomach, that should be muttar. lo kashya, it's not a contradiction. 41:35 כאן קודם חזרה כאן לאחר חזרה. rabosai, one was before he retracted the position, one ultimately again was after he retracted the position. 41:45 And again, rabosai, now what, what does this mean? 41:48 So ultimately, if we look at Rashi, Rashi says over here kan kodem chazara. 41:52 It's like right in the middle of the wide lines of Rashi. 41:54 בפרק אין מעמידין שאלו רבי ישמעאל את רבי יהושע מפני מה אסרו גבינת עובדי כוכבים. So, rabosai, earlier on in the masechta, Rabbi Yishmael asked Rabbi Yehoshua: Why is the cheese of an akum assur? 42:06 Why can't you eat the cheese of an akum? 42:08 אמר לו מפני שמעמידין אותה בקיבת נבילה כלומר בחלב הקרוש שבה. Originally, he said why? 42:17 Because they use the milk found in the stomach of a neveila to coagulate the cheese, to make the cheese. 42:23 אמר לו והלא קיבת העולה חמורה מקיבת נבילה ואמרו כל כהן שדעתו יפה שורפה חיה. אמרו לו מפני שמעמידין אותה בקיבת עגלי עבודה זרה. אלמא חזר בו מקיבת נבילה. So again, rabosai, listen to this. 42:39 So halacha lema'aseh, the gemara said over here that at the end of the day, they went ahead and they retracted this. 42:47 Really, rabosai, and let me just tell you this coming attraction although we're going to stop over here well, we'll go on a little bit more, but this is going to come out tomorrow. 42:53 We're going to see: the milk inside of the stomach is what's called pirsha be'alma. 42:59 It's nothing. It's nothing. 43:01 It's not considered to be a food item. 43:04 Therefore, again, halacha lema'aseh, using the actual milk in the stomach of the animal is totally fine. 43:11 The only time it's not fine is if you use the milk in the stomach of an animal of avoda zara, because by avoda zara, even if something is called a pirsha, pirsha means like refuse, by avoda zara, even refuse is problematic. 43:26 But stam, stam, let's say by a treifa animal, if you find milk inside of the stomach of that animal, totally muttar, because it's like refuse, like lehavdil, like excrement. 43:35 Like it's nothing, it's refuse and therefore not halachically problematic. 43:41 Interestingly enough, what is problematic? 43:42 Where do we get into problematic? 43:44 If you use a slice of the stomach itself. 43:47 That's when you get into an issue ultimately again of treifus. 43:50 And therefore the gemara says over here: Originally, Shmuel thought that halacha lema'aseh, the use of milk inside of a non-kosher animal stomach was problematic. 44:01 Achar chazara means after they retracted that position and they said the milk is fine. 44:07 Why is the milk fine? 44:08 We're going to see tomorrow. 44:09 Because the milk is called pirsha. 44:11 It's like, it's refuse, it's refuse. 44:13 The problem is going to be when you use a piece of the stomach itself. 44:17 Okay, rabosai, so we'll stop over here for today. 44:19 Again, we're going to finish up the cheese sugya tomorrow, see the Shulchan Aruch on that as well. 44:23 Shkoach, rabosai. Have a zman and a great day.
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