Transcript Translit עברית
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0:14 good morning, good morning, א גוט וואך. 0:18 Let us begin בעזרת השם by thanking all of our sponsors for this morning's שיעור. 0:29 To thank our תלמוד תורה sponsors for the month of אלול הבא עלינו לטובה, the Schonfeld משפחה, with Teddy, Keating, Orly, and Shimon Josh, this month, in the זכות of Mr. 0:37 Heshy Schonfeld, צבי מאיר בן משה הלוי, זכרונו לברכה. May his legacy of living each day בשמחה inspire us to find joy in every day, appreciate the blessings around us, and see the goodness in all that life has to offer. 0:46 Justin and Abigail Rosemore for dedicating all of the שיעורים and דרשות this month with gratitude to the entire קהילה. 0:53 We wish them tremendous הצלחה בעזרת השם on their move to Florida. 0:56 May a soul in recognition of the entire קהילה and in the זכות of continued רפואה שלמה for אילנה בת אסתר. 1:04 And Boruch Mayer and Rinat Dubin לעילוי נשמת שרה חנה בת בערל נחום, גרשום יעקב בן משה, and with tremendous gratitude to הקדוש ברוך הוא for the beautiful family שמחות of this year. 1:13 May our תפילות in אלול bring about the ultimate redemption and the coming of משיח במהרה בימינו, אמן. 1:19 And our דף יומי sponsors for today, Ayalah and Sara Steinberg, in the זכות of continued health שלמה for חנה בת סשה for an ultimate רפואה שלמה. רבותי, with that, let us begin. 1:28 Of course, we hope and pray that our learning, know that our learning, will בעזרת השם bring about בשורות טובות ברכות ישועות ונחמות for all of כלל ישראל. 1:35 We should just all be זוכה בעזרת השם to a כתיבה וחתימה טובה. רבותי, with that, let us begin. 1:39 Today's דף is קט\"ו, 115. 1:41 We are picking up בעזרת השם ממש the last line, the last, last two words of קי\"ד עמוד ב, 114b. 1:48 Thank you to Rabbi Richter for giving the, for giving שיעור yesterday. 1:53 A special welcome to Avraham Plonka who is here with us, the youngest member of our דף יומי שיעור, ברוך השם, incredible. 2:00 Avraham, it's always wonderful to have you with us. 2:03 Beautiful, beautiful. Alright רבותי, imagine where we would all be if we started, Avraham, how old are you? 2:10 Five and a half. 2:13 Oh, where we would be in life. 2:15 I won't say where I would be in life if I started דף יומי at five and a half years old. 2:18 Alright ברוך השם. Avraham, הקדוש ברוך הוא should בעזרת השם just give you continuous סיעתא דשמיא, you should be זוכה בעזרת השם to ללמוד תורה בשמחה באהבה בעומקות ובזריזות, you should be זוכה בעזרת השם to become a great תלמיד חכם, and you should be זוכה בעזרת השם to מקדש שם שמים each and every day, מאה ועשרים שנים טובות. 2:36 So רבותי, let's go. 2:37 So remember again, yesterday's דף we had a statement of רב אשי. 2:40 And רב אשי said as follows: רב אשי said from where do we know that בשר בחלב... 2:45 remember trying to figure out how do we know the prohibitions of בשר בחלב? 2:48 We know essentially we have three prohibitions of בשר בחלב. 2:53 You're not allowed to cook it, בישול, אכילה, you're not allowed to eat it, and הנאה, you're not allowed to get benefit from it. 2:56 Our discussion in the גמרא now is where do we learn all of these different prohibitions from. 3:02 So רב אשי, interestingly enough, said as follows: רב אשי said the פסוק says, לא תאכל כל תועבה. 3:07 Do not eat any abomination. 3:10 And therefore רב אשי says, כל שתעבתי לך, whatever is abominable, הרי לך בבל תאכל, you're not allowed to eat. 3:17 So if something is abominable, something is a תועבה, then ultimately you can't eat it. 3:21 So again, בשר בחלב, if השם says בשר בחלב is אסור, לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו, it's a תועבה, so you can't eat it. 3:29 That's the איסור אכילה. From where do I know the איסור הנאה? 3:34 So there רב אשי relies on רבי אבהו. 3:39 And רבי אבהו said whenever you find a prohibition of אכילה, לא יאכל, לא תאכל, לא תאכלו, that includes איסור אכילה and איסור הנאה. 3:49 Okay, so that's the שיטה of רב אשי. 3:51 So essentially anything that is abominable, anything that is a תועבה, you're not allowed to eat, and whenever the תורה says לא תאכל, לא יאכל, that also translates into an איסור הנאה, can't get benefit from it. 4:02 Fine. Now the גמרא challenges this. 4:03 אלא מעתה, רב אשי, if you are correct, top of קט\"ו, 115a, אלא מעתה, מעשה שבת ליסרו. 4:08 So רבותי, this is very interesting. 4:12 So therefore again, if you do a מלאכה on שבת, the result of that מלאכה should be אסור בהנאה. 4:19 Now take a look at רש\"י. רש\"י says, מעשה שבת כגון המבשל בשבת ליסרו באכילה לכל ישראל דהא הרתיחה לתעב ולרחק ממנו. 4:25 We've learned that לא יאכל is משום קנס, but others eat. 4:32 Listen to this. If that's the case רבותי, so let's say I go ahead and I cook an omelet. 4:37 ראובן cooks an omelet on שבת. 4:39 Okay, what's the הלכה רבותי? 4:41 What's the הלכה if ראובן cooks an omelet on שבת? 4:42 Say if it's בשוגג, so again, or let's even go more, from רש\"י's case. 4:47 If it's במזיד, he does it intentionally, the הלכה is ראובן himself is never allowed to get any benefit from it, but there are opinions that say that after שבת others can get benefit from it. 4:56 But רב אשי, according to what you just said, the... 4:58 anything that is abominable ultimately again is an issur achila and an issur hana'ah. 5:04 If that's the case then any results of melacha on Shabbos by definition should be osur bahana'ah for anyone. 5:13 Amar kra, the posuk says: כי קודש היא לכם. 5:16 The posuk says by Shabbos, for Shabbos is sanctified for you. 5:20 Hi kodesh, Shabbos is sanctified, v'ein maaseha kodesh, but ultimately again its results, right, or the its melachos are not kodesh. 5:31 And again rabosai, interesting, we're going to see this again, we often translate the word kodesh as holy, but kodesh also can mean set aside. 5:39 So the Gemara therefore explains and halakha l'maiseh, Shabbos itself is fundamentally set aside, but the results of Shabbos are not necessarily set aside. 5:48 Okay, therefore halakha l'maiseh, even though melacha on Shabbos is a to'eva, it doesn't automatically mean that illegal activity on Shabbos automatically produces results which are osur bahana'ah. 6:00 Fine. Next question: חורש בשור וחמור וחסום פי פרה בדש בה לסטרו. 6:06 So rabosai, what about the following? 6:08 If the halakha is you're not allowed to go ahead and plow a field with a shor v'chamor, right, you can't plow a field with two... 6:15 this is part... this is under the umbrella of the kilayim, of the forbidden mixtures discussion. 6:22 So you can't plow a field with a shor v'chamor. 6:23 Similarly again you're not allowed to muzzle your animal when it's threshing. 6:27 So let's say you did it... 6:28 let's say you plowed with a shor v'chamor or you muzzled your animal when it was threshing and now you have results from this illegal activity. 6:36 Based on what Rav Ashi said on kuf-yud-daled amud-beis, the results of that illegal activity should be osur bahana'ah. 6:44 Why? Because any time you do something you're not supposed to, the results are a to'eva, and when you have results which are a to'eva, the issur is for achila and hana'ah, to which the Gemara says: listru dehasi'avti lecha. 6:58 So the Gemara says... 6:59 the Gemara says: השתא ומה שבת דחמירא מעשיה מותרין. 7:02 So Gemara says no, tell you why it doesn't work. 7:07 Because if by Shabbos, which is more chomir than any of these other prohibitions, yet again we just established that the results of forbidden melacha on Shabbos are what? 7:18 Are going to be osur for the individual who did it, but they're not osur bahana'ah for anyone else. 7:22 הני לא כל שכן. So in these other cases as well, the results are not going to be osur bahana'ah. 7:29 Fine. So therefore the Gemara says again, so by Shabbos ultimately the results are not osur bahana'ah, when Shabbos is more chomir, certainly by these other areas which are less chomir the results are not going to be osur bahana'ah. 7:38 Fine. Next question: kilayim zera'im listru? Rabosai, remember again, all we're doing is we're asking case after case on Rav Ashi. Rav Ashi puts forward what appears to be a seemingly straightforward construct, which is: anything you're not allowed to do falls under the category of to'eva. 7:55 Right? And therefore again Rav Ashi said halakha l'maiseh, anything that's a to'eva, you're not allowed to eat. 8:02 Furthermore Rav Ashi said, anytime we find lo sochal, lo yochel, that verbiage, that also means an issur hana'ah. 8:08 So therefore again in Rav Ashi's construct, therefore if something is abominable... 8:13 now what makes something abominable? 8:14 What makes it a to'eva? 8:15 What? Hakadosh Barukh Hu doesn't want it. 8:17 That's what makes it a to'eva. 8:19 So therefore by definition, any pretty much... 8:21 or the Gemara is just saying, Rav Ashi, according to you, any illegal... 8:24 the results of any illegal activity should just be osur bahana'ah. 8:27 But again, it doesn't appear that that rule is holding up. 8:29 Gemara asks another question: kilayim zera'im listru. Rabosai, if you go ahead and you mixed seeds, you mix seeds together, the results ultimately again should be osur, why? 8:43 dehasi'avti lecha. Because again remember it's a to'eva. 8:45 Why is it a to'eva? 8:46 Because it's illegal. And therefore the results should be osur bahana'ah. Gemara says: מדי גלי רחמנא גבי כלאי הכרם פן תקדש פן תוקד אש. 8:56 So again rabosai, here's the difference. 8:57 When it comes to kilayim hakerem. 8:58 Now kilayim hakerem are forbidden mixtures in a vineyard. 9:02 So let's say the classic case is you sow wheat and vines together or in close proximity to each other. 9:08 So what does the Torah say? 9:10 Pen tikdash. Now the Gemara understands, now we translate pen tikdash as to mean: don't plant vineyards and wheat... 9:19 don't plant vines and wheat together why? 9:21 Pen tikdash. Now pen tikdash means because the result will be prohibited. 9:25 It's what we go back before. 9:26 Tikdash doesn't have to mean holy. 9:28 Tikdash just means set aside. 9:30 So if you go ahead and you plant these things together, the results are going to become osur, they're going to become set aside. 9:37 The Gemara understands that the word tikdash actually is a contraction for pen tukad esh. Pen tukad esh means you're going to have to go ahead and burn the result, which means that the results of kilayim hakerem are osur bahana'ah. 9:53 So the Gemara says now the Torah goes out of its way to say that by kilayim hakerem, mikh'lal d'kilayim zera'im... 10:07 indicates to us that the results of other forbidden mixtures like kilay zerayim, mixing seeds, is muttar. 10:13 Again, not muttar to do it, but the results are not assur bahana'ah. 10:18 The Gemara says אימא כלאי הכרם אסורים בין באכילה בין בהנאה. 10:21 Why don't we say the following? 10:23 Maybe kilay hakerem are going to be assur both ba'achilah and hana'ah, כלאי זרעים באכילה אסירי בהנאה שרו. 10:32 Maybe kilay zerayim will be assur ba'achilah, sorry, will be assur ba'achilah and muttar bahana'ah, to which the Gemara says hekeish lekilay behemah. 10:40 No, because kilay zerayim, right, forbidden mixtures of seeds, is compared ultimately again to mixtures of animals, dechtiv בהמתך לא תרביע כלאים. 10:49 The Torah says you shall not interbreed different species of animals. 10:56 שדך לא תזרע כלאים. And then it says you shall not go ahead and plant forbidden mixtures in your field. 11:03 So the Gemara says the juxtaposition tells us מה בהמתך היוצא ממנו מותרת, if you crossbreed animals, what's actually an interesting halachah, if you crossbreed animals which is assur, the resulting mixture which comes from the crossbreeding is muttar. 11:19 You can use it. 11:20 אף שדך היוצא ממנו מותר. So too again when you do crossbreeding, right, cross-planting in your field, ultimately again the result is going to be muttar. 11:32 The result is muttar. 11:33 Therefore again, interestingly enough, the only exception to this rule is kilay hakerem. 11:37 The only exception to this rule, that forbidden mixtures in a vineyard, you go ahead and you plant vines with something else, vines with wheat or vines with something else, that, in that case, the results are going to be assur. 11:51 But that's the exception, not the rule. 11:53 The Gemara says וכליי בהמה גופייהו מנלן דאסר רחמנא? 11:59 And by the way, in general, forbidden mixtures, right, crossbreeding of animals, from where do we know that it's assur? minalan? 12:06 So the Gemara says, or not that it's assur, the Torah says you're not allowed to do it, how do I know that it's muttar bahana'ah? 12:13 So I'm not allowed to crossbreed animals, that's a biblical prohibition, but if I did it, if I did it, it's muttar bahana'ah. 12:21 I can get benefit from it. 12:22 How do I know that? 12:24 מדאסר רחמנא כלאים לגבוה מכלל דלהדיוט שרי. This is very interesting. 12:29 From the fact that the Torah says you cannot go ahead and offer up a crossbred animal as a korban, it means that for sacrificial use it's prohibited, but what? 12:39 For regular mundane everyday use it's going to be permitted. 12:44 Incredible. אותו ואת בנו ליתסר. So now watch this. 12:49 Now there's a biblical, so again remember, we're just, we are fully focused on Rav Ashi right now, right? 12:54 Fully focused on Rav Ashi. 12:56 So the Gemara says, Rav Ashi, you're telling me that pretty much anything that is a to'evah, ultimately again the results will be assur ba'achilah and bahana'ah. 13:05 Okay, and the definition of to'evah, pretty much anything that is prohibited. 13:09 Okay, so what about oto ve'et beno? 13:11 What's oto ve'et beno? You're not allowed to shecht a mother and its offspring on the same day. 13:16 What if you did it? 13:18 What if you did it? 13:19 Now again rabosai, the way normally we understand it is, that, so what the Gemara suggesting over here is, you're not supposed to shecht a mother and its offspring on the same day. 13:27 What if you did it? 13:28 What if you did it? 13:29 According to Rav Ashi, what should be the halachah? 13:31 What should be the halachah? assur ba'achilah and assur bahana'ah. 13:35 Because it's a to'evah. 13:36 You did something that's prohibited by Hashem and that's abominable. 13:39 So it should be lissaru, lissaru. 13:41 So again rabosai, therefore you shecht two animals, a mother and its offspring. 13:44 According to Rav Ashi's construct, halachah lema'aseh, both animals should not be fit for consumption and assur bahana'ah. 13:52 To which, but, I just want to point out, we know that halachah lema'aseh, that's not how we pasken. 13:58 Right, the way we pasken, and this is actually quite interesting, is that halachah lema'aseh, halachah lema'aseh, although you did something illegal, both animals are fit for consumption and both animals are permitted bahana'ah, which obviously if you could eat it, it's permitted bahana'ah. maskana, to 14:14 which the Gemara says מדאסר רחמנא מחוסר זמן לגבוה. 14:19 So this is very interesting. 14:20 Since the Torah said mechussar zeman, now again rabosai, what's mechussar zeman? mechussar zeman literally means an animal that is lacking in time. 14:27 Now again rabosai, now what does this mean? 14:28 Classic simple example of this is, what's the halachah? 14:31 When can you offer up an animal for a korban? 14:33 At what age? From eight days and on. 14:37 מיום השמיני והלאה ירצה לקרבן אשה לה'. From eight days on you could offer it up as a korban. 14:42 If you offer up a korban that's less than eight days old, that korban is invalid. 14:46 Why? That's called mechussar zeman. 14:49 It's missing time. Missing time. 14:53 It's missing time. Now, it's fascinating that Mechussar zman is assur legavoah that the the phrase most often used for non-accomplishment in life is, phrase most often used, I don't have time. 15:15 A mechussar zman. If you live life with that excuse that you don't have enough time, just understand, assur legavoah. 15:24 You're never going to accomplish anything. 15:26 Never going to you're never going to reach the heights that you're capable of reaching. 15:33 There there is time for everything that's important. 15:37 That's the difference. There is not time for everything. 15:41 That's that's an unequivocal truth. 15:43 But there is time for everything that is important. 15:46 It's just a shayla of prioritizing. 15:48 And it's a shayla of deciding what am I carving out time for and what am I not carving out time for. 15:55 But if you live life mechussar zman, there's not enough time, just understand, assur legavoah, you will never reach the heights of personalistic accomplishment. 16:04 Incredible. So the gemara says over here, so the gemara is like this. 16:07 Now now that we know דאסרה רחמנא מחוסר זמן לגבוה, now that we know ultimately again that mechussar zman, mechussar zman is assur legavoah, it can't be used as a korban, mikhll d'lehedyot shari. Rabosai, now what's interesting about that is so watch this. 16:23 If I shecht a korbanic animal at seven days old, what's the halacha? 16:28 What's the halacha? The halacha is you can't offer it up as a korban. 16:30 But what? But what? 16:32 I can use it. 16:34 So I can use it. 16:35 So the gemara said, rabosai, so now watch this. 16:37 What is oto v'et bno? What is oto v'et bno? Oto v'et bno essentially is mechussar zman. 16:43 It's the same thing. 16:44 Why? Cause what's wrong with oto v'et bno? 16:47 Right? One day. In other words, the problem that I have with oto v'et bno is a timing issue. 16:52 I shechted mother and child on the same day. 16:55 Had I just waited a day, it would have been fine. 16:57 So it falls under the umbrella of mechussar zman. 16:59 So the gemara there essentially says like this. 17:01 Once I know that mechussar zman is only assur for korbanic purposes, but it is or but but it is muttar for mundane purposes, that tells me that oto v'et bno same thing. 17:12 Again halacha l'maaseh, it's muttar behana'ah. 17:15 Very interesting. Very interesting. 17:18 So the gemara, rabosai, just want to point out also how fascinating this is. 17:22 Intuitively you would think that anything you're not allowed to do, by definition, you also can't get benefit from. 17:30 That that is or that's Rav Ashi's construct, or at least part of his construct. 17:35 And it makes a lot of sense. 17:36 If God says don't do it, it would seem to make sense that the result should be absolutely prohibited. 17:43 But yet you begin to see over and over that's not the case. 17:46 Hashem says don't shecht the mother and the child on the same day. 17:49 I did it. What's the halacha? 17:50 What's the halacha? You could eat it. 17:52 You violated something, but you could eat it. 17:55 Don't plant seeds in the field together, certain seeds, right? 17:58 But if you did it, then what? 18:00 Right? Don't go ahead and cross-breed animal. 18:02 So rabosai, what's the pshat with that? 18:04 Right? Why is that? 18:05 It should just be every single thing that God says don't do, the result should be absolutely prohibited. 18:12 Why is that not the case? 18:14 So perhaps just on a basic level, rabosai, cause what is what's Hakadosh Baruch Hu telling us? 18:18 So you know every parent knows this experience. 18:21 You tell your child, tell your child, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, right? 18:26 Like where's Avrom Plonka? Is Avrom Plonka listening to this? 18:29 Right? Right? Don't don't do it. 18:31 You've I'm warning you, don't do it. 18:33 And then what happens? 18:35 And then every what happens? 18:38 The child sheepishly smiles at you as they do it. 18:42 As they do it. 18:44 And as the parent, you are profoundly conflicted, right? 18:48 Cause in that moment you're like I need to hold the line. 18:52 I need to hold the line. 18:54 But on the flip side, I love you so much. 18:57 You're so cute. You're so sweet. 19:00 You're so wonderful. So like kivyachol, I think that happens a lot with us and Hakadosh Baruch Hu also. 19:06 The Ribono Shel Olam says don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, and meanwhile again, Hakadosh Baruch Hu, I love you so much, but I'm going to I think I'm going to do it. 19:15 I I think I'm I think I'm going to do it. 19:18 Right? I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it. 19:20 And I'm probably going to do it repeatedly. 19:22 And it's almost as if like built into the system is a recognition you're not allowed to do it. 19:26 And by the way rabosai, there are repercussions, right? 19:28 Because for all of these things, remember technically you would get malkus, right? 19:31 Because at the end of the day you violated a lo sa'aseh. 19:35 But it's interesting to see almost as if the right the results are permitted almost in this beautiful loving way of Hakadosh Baruch Hu telling us, I really would prefer you not to do this. 19:45 I'm asking not to do it. 19:46 But I love you I just want you to know that I love you. 19:49 I love you never never think never think that transgression means the absence of love. 19:55 Never think that doing the wrong thing means that Hakadosh Baruch Hu loves me any any less. 19:59 Sometimes the results are permitted as Hakadosh Baruch Hu's way of telling us I still love you even though you did the wrong thing, I just need you to do better next time. 20:08 Such a beautiful and heartening message. 20:10 Let's go ahead. The Gemara says as follows: Shiluach Hakan. 20:13 Ah, best in this parsha. Shiluach Hakan, sending away the mother bird. 20:17 You see, Rabbosai, now this is interesting because it's not immediately clear what exactly what exactly this case over here is. 20:24 If you skip down in Rashi, Rashi, it's in the second to last short line, right before the lines get wide, the beginning line Lishna Achrina Rashi says: Shiluach Hakan l'issar כל שילוח הקן לאסור האם לעולם v'afilu shilcha דהכל שתיאבתי לך הרי הוא לך לעולם בבל תאכל. 20:45 So this is very interesting. 20:47 Now Rashi's first version, but we're going to go with the second version of Rashi, which Rashi himself says I prefer. 20:52 What's the masechta of Shiluach Hakan? 20:53 What's the halacha? The halacha is if you want to take the eggs or the chicks, what do you have to do? 20:59 שלח תשלח את האם, which means that the mother is prohibited. 21:05 Right? That's the halacha. 21:07 The halacha is the mother is prohibited. 21:09 So Rashi says over here, oh, if the mother is prohibited then what? 21:13 The mother's a to'eva. 21:14 If the mother's a to'eva then what? 21:16 The halacha l'ma'aseh what? Ultimately again, the mother is asur b'achila and asur b'hana'ah. 21:23 So look at that Rashi, look at that inside one more time. 21:25 Lishna Achrina Shiluach Hakan l'issar, we're in Rashi, second to last second to last short line, כל שילוח הקן לאסור האם לעולם. 21:32 The mother should be asur forever. 21:34 v'afilu shilcha דהכל שתיאבתי לך הרי הוא לך לעולם בבל תאכל והרי אסרתיה לך באותה שעה וזה נראה לי עיקר. So Rashi says, listen to this. 21:47 Rav Ashi, according to your construct, when you come upon a nest, you have to send away the mother bird. 21:52 You're not allowed to take the mother. 21:53 You have to send her away. 21:54 Which means that the mother is asur. 21:56 If the mother is asur, the mother ultimately again is a to'eva. 21:59 And if she's a to'eva, ultimately again asur b'achila and asur b'hana'ah. 22:04 Yet again, Rabbosai, the Gemara says: the Gemara says, אלא גבי שילוח הקן לאסור lo amra, Gemara says: לא אמרה תורה שלח לתקלה. 22:14 That can't be. That can't be, Rabbosai. 22:16 Why can't that be? 22:17 Imagine if that was the case. 22:19 That would mean now you're sending away the mother bird. 22:21 Now that mother bird is asur b'achila asur b'hana'ah. 22:24 What's the problem? What's the problem? 22:25 What's the problem? No one knows about it. 22:29 Right? No one knows about it. 22:30 And even if someone knows about it, that I sent away the mother bird, what are you going to do? 22:33 You're going to tag it? 22:34 Right? You're a mother bird, we're going to tag you now forever. 22:36 And then everyone knows if they find you, they're going to see your little your little tag that says a shiluach that you're Shiluach Hakan? 22:41 It's impossible. It would be a stumbling block then for anyone and everyone else. 22:46 Impossible. Amrei leh, so therefore, Rabbosai, that's the end of Rav Ashi. 22:49 That's the end of Rav Ashi. 22:51 So the problem is the way the Gemara ends off is Rav Ashi's logic doesn't really seem to stand up to all of these questions, although we've come up with exceptions to the rule. 23:01 But again, this is Rav Ashi's idea. 23:03 Rabbosai, so Rav Ashi's saying halacha l'ma'aseh, I agree, basar b'chalav ultimately is asur b'hana'ah, is asur b'achila, asur b'hana'ah, asur b'achila because it's a to'eva, and ultimately again asur b'hana'ah because any time you see lo tochal, lo yachal, lo socheilu, it means an issur hana'ah as well. 23:19 That's Rav Ashi. Comes along Reish Lakish. Amrei Reish Lakish, מנלן בבשר בחלב שאסור? 23:23 Reish Lakish says, now Reish Lakish advances another idea. 23:27 How do we know how do we know that basar b'chalav is asur? Talmud lomar: אל תאכלו ממנו נא ובשל מבושל. 23:33 So listen to this, Rabbosai, ובשר בשל מבושל במים. 23:35 The Torah is talking about Korban Pesach. 23:36 By Korban Pesach, you can't eat from it raw, u'bashel mevushal, and not cooked in water, not boiled. 23:45 Can't eat boiled boiled Korban Pesach, only roasted. 23:50 So the Gemara says: מה תלמוד לומר מבושל? 23:52 Now again, Rabbosai, if you look at the lashon, Now, all the Torah needed to say is אל תאכלו ממנו נא ובשל. 23:59 You can't eat from it raw and you can't eat from it boiled. 24:02 Why do you have to add in the extra word mevushal? 24:05 That extra word that word is extra. 24:07 To which the Gemara says: יש לך בישול אחר שהוא כזה, to teach us ultimately again that there's another type of bishul that is asur just like Korban Pesach. 24:18 What's the other form of bishul that is asur just like cooked Korban Pesach? 24:22 ואיזה זה זה בשר בחלב. Fascinating. So Reish Lakish ultimately again is learning out the prohibition of basar b'chalav from Korban Pesach. 24:32 The extra word mevushal teaches us that there's another form of bishul that is asur as well. 24:38 What's this other form of bishul that's asur? Bishul of basar b'chalav. Amrei leh Rabbi Yochanan, so Rabbi Yochanan says: amud beis, כיאורה זו שנינו רבי. 24:48 So again, Rabbosai, listen to this. 24:51 So they said back they said back to Reish Lakish: כיאורה זו ששנו רבי? 24:56 Is it disgusting to you that? 24:58 that which Rabbi said. 25:00 Now rabbosai, in other words, what they're saying is Reish Lakish, Reish Lakish, hey, why are you coming up with a new drasha? 25:06 What's wrong with the drasha that Rabbi had? 25:09 Right, Rashi says over here, if you tap Rashi on קט\"ז עמוד ב, 115b, כאורה זו ששנו רבי כלומר וכי מכוערת היא בעינך משנה זו ששנה רבי ולמדה לבשר בחלב מקרא זה. 25:19 In other words, why such a strong, why such a strong lashon? 25:26 Right, he said Reish Lakish, what, Rabbi's drasha is disgusting to you? 25:31 You see rabbosai, one of the most beautiful things about Yiddishkeit, one of the most beautiful things that we have is mesorah, is there's a tradition. 25:38 Right, there are things that are handed down generation to generation. 25:41 So they're saying to, they're saying to Reish Lakish, Reish Lakish, why do you need to introduce a whole new limmud? 25:47 What's wrong with what Rabbi said? 25:49 What did Rabbi say? 25:50 Lo tishlano, basar bechalav, sorry, lo tishlano. The pasuk says lo tishlano, לא תאכלנו בבשר בחלב הכתוב מדבר. 25:56 The Torah is talking about ultimately, again, basar bechalav. 25:59 Now rabbosai, now the context over here is not basar bechalav. 26:05 What are we talking about? 26:06 If we look at Rashi: לא תאכלנו יתירה דכתיב בראה אנכי גבי פסולי מוקדשים שנפדו רק הדם לא תאכלו על הארץ תשפכנו כמים והדר כתיב לא תאכלו למען ייטב לך. 26:20 So again rabbosai, the context over here is actually psulei hamukdashin. Psulei hamukdashin means animals that were consecrated for korbanic use and subsequently became disqualified. 26:29 For whatever the reason, a mum, rabbosai, is the most classic example, some type of blemish. 26:34 So what's the halacha? 26:34 The Torah says, okay, so you could redeem psulei hamukdashin, use them ultimately again for your own use, but there are still some restrictions. 26:42 Amongst them, the prohibition of blood still applies. 26:47 The Torah says רק הדם לא תאכלו על הארץ תשפכנו כמים, don't eat the blood, spill it out like water on the ground. 26:55 And then it says lo tishlano, don't eat it. 26:59 Shaila is why does the Torah need to repeat the prohibition of not eating the blood? 27:04 We know this already. 27:06 So lo tishlano, so Rabbi understands the extra lo tishlano is actually coming to teach us about basar bechalav. 27:12 לא תאכלנו בבשר בחלב הכתוב מדבר. So the Gemara says אף אתה אמור בבשר בחלב הכתוב מדבר או אינו אלא באחד מכל איסורין שבתורה. 27:19 See rabbosai, it's incredible. 27:21 So Rabbi says the extra lo tishlano by psulei hamukdashin, by disqualified korbanic offerings, ultimately again is coming to teach us the prohibition of basar bechalav. Gemara says hold up, how do you know it's basar bechalav? 27:35 Maybe it's coming to teach us some other prohibition. 27:37 אמרת צא ולמד מי\"ג מדות שהתורה נדרשת בהן. So rabbosai, now watch this, so let's use one of the thirteen exegetical principles that Rabbi Yishmael espouses. 27:48 What's one of the thirteen exegetical principles? 27:50 Davar halomed me'inyano. Now again rabbosai, davar halomed me'inyano means sometimes we could learn out something from the very context in which it is stated. 28:01 So let's look at this pasuk. Bameh hakatuv medaber? 28:03 What is the Torah speaking about over here? 28:06 By psulei hamukdashin. Bishnei minin. See rabbosai, this is fascinating. 28:11 Psulei hamukdashin represents ultimately, again, shnei minin, two, two, two types, elements, two elements, thank you. 28:26 Now again rabbosai, now what does that mean? 28:27 Psulei hamukdashin is a disqualified animal. 28:29 So what are the two elements? 28:31 Look at Rashi just for a moment, it's fascinating. 28:33 Bishnei minin, Rashi says over here: פסולי מוקדשים שנפדו שני מינין הן. 28:40 When you have an animal which was consecrated as a korban and then developed some type of disqualification, so now again, now it's a disqualified korban, there are really two elements in that animal. 28:51 What are the two elements? 28:52 He says on one hand muttarin ba'achila kechullin, on one hand that animal is fit for consumption ultimately just like any other mundane animal. 29:00 On the other hand אסורין בגיזה ובעבודה כקדשים, the animal still retains some of its residual korbanic sanctity. 29:08 That manifests itself in how? 29:10 You're not allowed to shear the animal and you're not allowed to work the animal. 29:15 Isn't that fascinating? So when you have psulei hamukdashin, you have shnei minin, you have two elements, you have two elements. 29:23 The Gemara says bless you. 29:24 So the Gemara says as follows, so now watch this, so now we have Avram Plonka, have a great day, have a great day mamash. 29:31 30... by the way, I'm almost done myself, I just want to point out, right, I'm not... 29:36 it's good, it's good, Lasker's almost as long as me, and chas veshalom, beautiful, beautiful. 29:41 And rabbosai, so now let's go. 29:42 So now the Gemara says as follows, so the Gemara, now watch this, there's two ex... 29:47 so right, so this is, so I just want to point out what's happening over here. 29:49 We're using the exegetical principle of davar halomed me'inyano, which is when you have a pasuk in the Torah and it's not clear exactly what it's... 29:59 referring to, we could glean, we could glean the meaning of this specific pasuk from the context in which it is stated. 30:07 That's the exegetical principle of Davar Halamed Meinyano. 30:12 So again, I have a pasuk I don't or a phrase, I don't know what it's talking about, I can understand it based on the context. 30:18 What's the context? We have an extra Lo Sochalenu. 30:22 An extra phrase that says don't eat it. 30:24 I don't need it for blood because you already tell me about blood. 30:26 What is it talking about? 30:27 Well, let's look at the context. 30:29 What's the context? Psulei Hamukdashin. 30:32 What's unique about Psulei Hamukdashin? 30:34 What's unique about it? 30:35 It's one item with two elements. 30:38 What are the two elements? 30:39 This disqualified korban on one hand has elements of a mundane animal. 30:43 What's the mundane element of it? 30:46 You could eat it. 30:47 You could shachet it, you could eat it, right? 30:49 Without any kedushah you could just eat it. 30:51 On the other hand, it has an element of kedushah or consecration. 30:55 What's the consecrated element? 30:56 You can't work it and you can't go ahead and shear it. 31:00 So watch this. מה הכתוב מדבר בשני מינים אף כאן בשני מינים. 31:05 So too when the Torah says Lo Sochalenu, Lo Sochalenu must also be talking about a prohibition of eating something that also has two elements. 31:15 Rabosai, what's a good example of a prohibited item that has two elements? 31:21 Basar Bechalav. Basar Bechalav, so here Rabbi says this is the source for the prohibition ultimately again of Basar Bechalav, the extra Lo Sochalenu ultimately said by Psulei Hamukdashin and it's learned off from the exegetical principle of Davar Halamed Meinyano. 31:39 The Gemara says wait one second. 31:41 אי מהאיי הוה אמינא הני מילי באכילה אבל בהנאה לא. But again, in all fairness Reish Lakish says that only tells me issur achilah. 31:51 Okay, so that could tell me Basar Bechalav is assur be'achilah, but ultimately again how do I know that it's assur behanaah? 31:57 Right, so therefore again halacha lema'aseh Reish Lakish says that's where my drasha comes ultimately again to help with an issur hanaah and to tell me that halacha lema'aseh it is assur behanaah as well. 32:10 Incredible. Therefore Reish Lakish says, Reish Lakish says that remember because again Korban Pesach, Korban Pesach is mutar be'achilah but ultimately again it's assur behanaah because it's kodshim, right? 32:22 In other words, you can't get hanaah from it in a non-eating way. 32:25 So the Gemara says Verabi hanaah minalan? 32:27 So this is a good kashya. 32:28 So now obviously the Gemara's assuming Rabbi also agrees that Basar Bechalav is assur behanaah, but his drasha only teaches me an issur achilah. 32:36 From where does Rabbi learn an issur hanaah? Nafkah lei mehacha. 32:40 He learns it out from here. 32:41 נאמר כאן כי עם קדוש אתה לה' אלקיך. So the pasuk says over here, you are this is by neveilah, you can't eat it by the prohibition to eat a neveilah. 32:50 The pasuk says you are a holy nation unto Hashem. 32:54 ונאמר להלן לא יהיה קדש בבני ישראל. And the Torah says you shouldn't have like a harlot in Klal Yisrael. 33:02 And rabosai did I mention before that it's fascinating that the biblical term for a harlot is a kadesh, right? 33:10 What's the pshat? Because remember again it makes sense that shoresh kuf daled shin doesn't translate as holy, it really translates as something that is exclusively set aside for something. 33:22 So you could have something that is exclusively set aside for holiness like hekdesh, right? 33:27 Hakadosh Baruch Hu is Kadosh because ultimately again He is exclusively holy or you could have ultimately a harlot which is exclusively someone exclusively set aside for promiscuity. 33:39 Fascinating. Same word, just means exclusivity. 33:42 So the Gemara says Mah lehallan behanaah? 33:45 So just like again rabosai the prohibition ultimately again of the harlot is an issur hanaah because obviously again the whole essence of engaging in immorality is hanaah. Af kan behanaah. 33:56 So too over here ultimately again by neveilah and by extension again by extension Basar Bechalav is also going to be an issur hanaah. 34:05 Fascinating. So again rabosai I just want to point out just if you're keeping track, we have it's interesting, everyone is agreeing, right? 34:12 So far no one is there's no material disagreement, right? 34:15 Everyone is agreeing you can't cook Basar Bechalav, that's obvious because the Torah says לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו. 34:21 That's explicit. But and everyone's also agreeing that there's an issur achilah and there's an issur hanaah. 34:27 You've got Rav Ashi so far learning it out from his source, Reish Lakish learning it out from his source, Rabbi learning it out from his source. 34:34 So no one disagrees on the fundamental halacha but fundamentally disagreeing on the source. 34:41 Another another another source. 34:43 דבי רבי אליעזר תנא לא תאכלו כל נבלה. Torah says you can't eat any neveilah. 34:50 אמרה תורה כשתמכרנה לא תבשלנה ותמכרנה. So rabosai this is fascinating. 34:56 So listen to this. 34:57 So תנא דבי רבי אליעזר says like this. 34:59 They say the Torah says you're not allowed to eat a neveila. 35:00 Now what can you do with a neveila? 35:02 What can you do with a neveila? 35:04 You could sell it to a non-Jew, right? 35:07 You could go ahead, you could give it to the ger, right? 35:09 לא תאכלו כל נבלה לגר אשר בשעריך תתננה to the ger, to the ger, to the ger toshav, right, to the resident, to the resident alien, he's a goy, he's not Jewish, who lives in your midst, you could give it to him, or you could sell it to another 35:20 Gentile. So Gemara says, what do we learn from here? 35:23 Keshetimkerena, if you're going to sell it, lo tivshalleha vetimkerena. 35:27 Don't cook it with milk before you sell it. 35:30 Wow, fascinating, right? That's the drasha. 35:32 Don't sell it with milk before Rashi says, לא תבשלנה בחלבו ותמכרנה אלמא אסורה בהנאה. 35:38 So what do you see from here? 35:38 You're not allowed to cook it in milk before you sell it, because then if you cooked it in milk, you couldn't get hana'ah from it. 35:44 So this is his source for an issur hana'ah for basar bechalav. 35:47 Fascinating. דבי רבי ישמעאל תנא לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו ג' פעמים. Rabosai, this is the classic drasha. 35:55 The classic drasha, which is the one that most of us are familiar. 35:58 Debei Rebbe Yishmael says, from where do we know all the prohibitions? 36:01 It says לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו three times. 36:04 Three times: echad le'issur achila, one to say you can't eat it, ve'echad le'issur hana'ah, to say you can't get benefit from it, ve'echad le'issur bishul, and one to say you can't cook it. 36:15 Rabosai, that by the way, so just in this whole sea of drashas, this is the one that is codified lahalacha. 36:23 This is the one I think most of us are familiar with. 36:25 The Torah says don't cook a kid in its mother's milk three times. 36:29 Why three times? Issur bishul, can't cook it, issur achila, can't eat it, issur hana'ah, can't get any benefit from it. 36:36 Beautiful, beautiful, but we're not finished, you know, the conversation still continues. 36:41 תניא איסי בן יהודה אומר מנין לבשר בחלב שאסור. From where do we know that basar bechalav is assur? 36:48 How do we know that from? 36:49 You know rabosai, because remember biblically speaking, the only thing I know is I can't what? 36:54 I can't what? I can't cook it. 36:56 How do I know ultimately again that it's assur bahana'ah? 36:59 נאמר כאן כי עם קדוש אתה. It says over here, you are a holy nation. 37:05 That's by neveila. The prohibition ultimately again to cook neveila and basar bechalav and ne'emar, right, because remember rabosai, just to point out, the prohibition of neveila and basar bechalav are stated in the same passuk. 37:18 So it says by basar bechalav, ki am kadosh, you are a holy nation, and ultimately again, and it says ונאמר להלן ואנשי קדש תהיון לי ובשר בשדה טרפה לא תאכלו. 37:30 And then the passuk says, be a holy nation, don't eat a treifa. 37:35 Okay, so the Gemara says: מה להלן אסור אף כאן אסור. 37:39 Just like you're not allowed to eat a treifa, so too you can't eat basar bechalav. Passuk uses the same wording, כי עם קדוש אתה לה' אלהיך. 37:48 So the Gemara says that's fine, ואין לי אלא באכילה, that teaches me that I can't eat basar bechalav, bahana'ah minayin? 37:55 How do I know that I'm not allowed to get benefit from basar bechalav? 37:58 To which the Gemara says, amar kal vachomer. 38:00 It's a kal vachomer. So the Gemara says the kal vachomer: Rabosai, now watch this. 38:07 This is going to be a little bit of a longer limud. 38:09 Here we go. When it comes to orlah, and rabosai, have I committed any, any aveira in the creation of orlah? 38:17 No. What's orlah? Orlah is the fruit of the tree for the first three years. 38:22 It's prohibited. Now I didn't do anything, right, it's not like I intervened in this process of and created something prohibited. 38:28 Orlah is just a reality. 38:30 So when it comes to orlah where I didn't do any issur, yet what's the halacha? Assura bahana'ah. Orlah is not only assur be'achila, but you can't get benefit from it as well. 38:40 בשר בחלב שנעבדה בו עבירה אינו דין שאסור בהנאה. This is fascinating. 38:46 So if orlah, which I didn't do anything wrong, is assur bahana'ah, then what? 38:51 Basar bechalav where I did something wrong, right? 38:54 What did I do wrong? 38:56 I cooked milk and meat together. 38:58 Rabosai, remember again, let's take a step back. 39:00 The one piece of biblical information that we have is לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו. 39:05 Torah says you can't cook it. 39:06 So if orlah where I didn't do anything, yet there's an issur hana'ah, basar bechalav where I did something certainly should create an issur hana'ah. 39:17 To which the Gemara says, one second, מה לערלה שכן לא היתה לה שעת הכושר. 39:22 But one second, it's not a fair comparison. 39:24 Orlah never had a time in which it was permitted. 39:27 Right, there was no permitted window by orlah. 39:30 It was assur from its inception. 39:32 Yet again, yet again basar bechalav, rabosai, did have a period of when it was permitted. 39:38 When was it permitted? 39:39 Ultimately again, the meat was permitted on its own, the milk was permitted on its own. 39:42 So that comparison is not a good one. 39:44 To which the Gemara says: חמץ בפסח יוכיח שהיתה לו שעת הכושר ואסור בהנאה. 39:49 Fine, but we can compare it to Pesach chametz. Chametz had a time that it was permitted. 39:54 Right, when is chametz permitted? 39:56 51 weeks out of the year, and yet then it becomes. 39:59 And it’s assur and it’s an issur hana'ah. 40:02 So too again basar bechalav, halacha l'maaseh again although it was permitted, when it becomes assur when you cook it together, it's assur behana'ah. 40:09 To which the Gemara says מה לחמץ בפסח שכן ענוש כרת. 40:13 No no no, can't bring a raya from chametz. 40:15 Why can't you bring a raya from chametz? 40:17 Because chametz brings a punishment of kares. 40:20 So the Gemara says kilay hakerem yoichiach. 40:23 So let's bring it from kilay hakerem. 40:25 What's kilay hakerem? Again rabosai, forbidden mixtures in the vineyard. 40:27 שאין ענוש כרת ואסור בהנאה. There's no kares right, there's no punishment of kares, but ultimately again it is going to be assur behana'ah. 40:36 Let's learn out therefore again halacha l'maaseh to basar bechalav that even though again halachically should also be assur behana'ah. 40:44 To which the Gemara says wait a second, למה לי גזירה שוה? ליתיה כולה בקל וחומר מערלה. 40:48 Why are we trying to learn out all this from g'zeira shava? 40:54 Just learn out this entire thing from a kal v'chomer of orlah. 40:56 What's the kal v'chomer? ומה ערלה שלא נעבדה בה עבירה אסורה בין באכילה בין בהנאה. 41:01 Rabosai it's a great kal v'chomer. Orlah, now again rabosai, what did I do wrong in the creation of orlah? 41:08 What did I do wrong? 41:10 Nothing. Nothing. I didn't do anything. 41:14 It's validating in a safe space to say I didn't do anything wrong. 41:17 You know, you know sometimes over a long married life it's like the default right? 41:21 What did I do wrong? 41:22 Boruch Hashem this is a good chevra like a support group over here. 41:25 I didn't do anything wrong. 41:25 I didn't do anything wrong right? 41:27 So the Gemara says, the Gemara says like this, the Gemara says ומה ערלה שלא נעבדה בה עבירה אסורה בין באכילה בין בהנאה. 41:33 So by orlah I didn't do anything wrong, right? 41:37 And yet what? The result of orlah is what? 41:40 The result of orlah is assur b'achilah, assur behana'ah. 41:44 בשר בחלב שנעבדה בו עבירה אינו דין שאסור בין באכילה בין בהנאה? That's a good kal v'chomer. Rabosai right? 41:54 That's a good kal v'chomer. 41:55 If by orlah where I didn't do anything wrong in the creation of orlah, yet the result is assur b'achilah and assur behana'ah, basar bechalav where I did do something wrong in the creation. 42:07 What did I do wrong? 42:09 What did I do wrong? 42:10 I cooked it together, that's an issur d'oraisa, then certainly the result should be assur b'achilah and assur behana'ah. 42:16 That is a great kal v'chomer. 42:19 That is a great kal v'chomer. 42:21 To which the Gemara says here's the problem: משום דאיכא למימר חורש בשור וחמור וחוסם פי פרה ודש בה יוכיחו שנעבדה בהם עבירה ושרו. 42:31 You see rabosai, here's the problem. 42:35 Here's the problem, the problem is it doesn't hold up. 42:38 Why doesn't it hold up? 42:39 Because there are other examples of things that you do wrong, yet the result is not assur. 42:44 Classic example of that ultimately is what? 42:47 If you plow with a forbidden mixture of animals or you go ahead and you muzzle your animal when the animal is threshing. 42:54 Those are those are illegal activities, yet the result of those illegal activities is mutar. 43:00 Is mutar. So in other words you see that the rule, that the paradigm doesn't hold up, that sometimes again even if you've done something illegal, the result is not necessarily going to be prohibited. 43:13 So the Gemara says, rabosai you know what we're going to do actually? 43:17 We're going to stop for a few minutes. 43:20 We're going to stop over here for today, we'll pick up we'll pick up tomorrow right right in the middle of the conversation but the conversation extends, it goes on for a little bit. 43:25 So again rabosai, just hold tight. 43:26 Remember this is very exciting, the nice part about these types of conversations at least for now is the result is not in question, right? 43:34 The result everyone is agreeing basar bechalav, issur bishul that's d'oraisa, issur achilah, issur hana'ah. 43:41 We just have this multi-way machlokes about how exactly we're getting to all of this. 43:45 The Gemara just wants to learn it out from a simple kal v'chomer to kilay hakerem. 43:49 The Gemara then destroyed that but we're not finished the conversation. 43:54 Im yirtzeh Hashem we're going to finish the conversation resolution im yirtzeh Hashem tomorrow rabosai. Shkoach.
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